I didn’t damage my rental car, so why do I have to pay?

When Katherine LaFaso returns her Enterprise rental, she’s charged $500 for damages she says existed before she picked up the car. But how can she prove it?

Question: I rented a car from Enterprise in Paramus, N.J., for a month while my car was being fixed due to an accident. It was the only rental available that day, and an Enterprise employee told me there was an open claim with some damages, which were pointed out to me. I was told I would be contacted in a few days to switch out the car for one without any damage, but that never happened.

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When I returned the car, there was a more detailed inspection done by a different employee. The damage in question didn’t even look like damage; it looked more like bad repair work or an imperfection. But the bottom line is: I did not damage the car.

Enterprise charged my credit card $500 without my authorization, and my credit card company recently sided with me and credited my account. Enterprise’s damage-recovery unit is now giving me an ultimatum: Pay up, or we’ll send this to collections, and you could face legal consequences. What are my options now? — Katherine LaFaso, Paramus, N.J.

Answer: You could pay this bill — or fight it.

Here are the reasons to pay: Enterprise claims that you damaged its car, and if you don’t settle up, the car rental company will have to cover the damages. Also, your damage claim may be referred to a collections agency, and you might be added to Enterprise’s “Do Not Rent” list.

Here are the reasons to fight: Your claim raised several red flags that were so troubling even your credit card company sided with you in the dispute. There is the arbitrary $500 charge (despite the fact that Enterprise showed you no repair invoice). And any claim at or near $500, which is the normal amount of an insurance deductible, is suspicious, because it looks as if a car rental company is going for the easy money and trying to keep your insurance company out of its business. By your account, Enterprise lost the credit card dispute, which means it couldn’t prove that you were at fault.

I think this easily might have been avoided. First, never accept a damaged car, even if it’s the last one on the lot. If, for some reason, you feel you have no choice, then take lots of photos or videos of the vehicle with your phone. Document any pre-existing damage in writing, ask a manager to sign the rental agreement, and then get the manager’s business card. You’ll probably need it later.

If you’d shown Enterprise the images and a signed rental agreement with the damages documented, you never would have been charged $500, and you wouldn’t be receiving threatening letters now from the damage-recovery unit.
I’m getting a little tired of these cases. If car rental companies simply asked their customers to photograph their vehicles before driving them off the lot and offered a clear way to document any pre-existing dings and dents, then these cases would disappear overnight. I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t want to end these time-wasting claims, unless they are amazingly profitable.

I contacted Enterprise on your behalf. It reviewed the claim, and although it said there is “no evidence” to support the allegation that the damage was pre-existing, the regional manager who was handling this claim has left the company. As a result, Enterprise couldn’t clarify some questions and follow normal protocol. Enterprise dropped its claim.

Should Enterprise have dropped this claim?

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91 thoughts on “I didn’t damage my rental car, so why do I have to pay?

  1. Enterprise…do you need to say more…this seems like their standard operating procedure.

    Please add Enterprise to your Do Not Rent from list!

  2. 1. did you pay their insurance?

    i have said this int he past, if you buy their insurance they will be your BFF. if not then you fall off their radar until you return the car- at that time they will stick you with every inch of damage known to man.

    2. “I was told I would be contacted in a few days to switch out the car for one without any damage, but that never happened.”- did you get it in writing? OR photograph your car?

    if you choose to not take their insurance you HAVE do do one or the other.

    so voted no.

      1. Understanding insurance and liability is part of being an adult. These companies are loaning you a $25000 piece of equipment. You should never forget that and treat the whole process very seriously.

        1. Take is seriously, yes. But who thinks they’ll be charged for damage they didn’t cause just because a company thinks they can get away with it? It’s not a question of being an adult, but a question of what is right, and what is wrong.

        2. This is not about “being an adult.” The LW was told she would have the opportunity to get an undamaged vehicle and didn’t. And why exactly does she have to pay for insurance to cover damage she was not responsible for, and that the employee she dealt with was aware of?

      2. Agree with your comment. I am very troubled by comments implying that someone was unsophisticated and therefore deserves to be taken by a rental car company. I learned the trick of taking pictures with my phone from this website (thank you Chris) and I now also mention that I have done so to every rental car employee I see before I drive off the lot. I also have refused a car. Despite all of this I can see the possibility of getting caught in this scam because I am very short and cannot see or photograph the roof of tall vehicles like SUVs, and I cannot physically get down on the ground to inspect the underside of the vehicle.

        Does that mean I am still responsible for protecting myself with insurance and knowledge as much as I can? Of course. Does that mean I deserve to be scammed for pre-existing damage to those areas of vehicles that I cannot reasonably see? I think not.

          1. lol. My favorite car to rent was a Ford Excursion. Believe me, short people were not taking pictures of the top.

    1. Accident insurance from a car rental company can double the cost of the rental. I’m not about to spend $200 or $300 to “protect me” against damage. I have an automobile insurance policy and use American Express when I rent. Both provide coverage.

      This scam reminds me of the protection racket that mobsters use to make money off small business. “You pay us and your property won’t get damaged”. In other words, you purchase grossly overpriced coverage and we won’t present you with a bill for damage that was pre-existing. I wonder if this scam can be prosecuted in Federal Court under the RICO act? It is a conspiracy between car rental management and their employees to commit fraud while engaged in an interstate enterprise (that’s small e, not capital E).

      1. Sone countries will not accept that- Mexico and Ireland are two. And the Amex insurance doesn’t include liability which you will be totally ripped off for on the price of that.

        1. Since I have never rented a car in either of these countries, I was unaware of this. Thanks for enlightening me and the rest of the readers.

    2. Rental car insurance at the counter is very expensive and unnecessary. Most of us have credit cards which have very comprehensive insurance – mine do. I always sign very happily the form that tries to scare the living daylights out of people with it’s ‘I will be fully responsible for the loss of the vehicle’. It’s all scare tactics and a very large number of people fall for it. So no, no-one needs to take it unless they don’t have any other kind of insurance.

    3. “Would you like the optional insurance, Mr. Seinfeld?”

      “Yes I would, ’cause I’m gonna beat the hell out of this thing”

  3. Why does this post sound so familiar—right down to the name of the LW and the fact that the Enterprise employee has left the company? Very odd.

    1. Chris got her out of a hole once, why not do it again?

      This is America after all; never accept responsibilities for your own actions.

      1. It was a while back–but same thing. I do not read the syndicated column as the comments are not near the entertainment value of this site1

    2. September 25, 2014 from this site:

      http://elliott dot org/problem-solved/shocked-1443-bill-toyota-dealership/

      One of the commenters pointed out that this person has had issues with both her leased car and her rental car and referenced today’s tale of woe being published elsewhere.

      1. I must have clicked the link to the syndicated column and read it there. I knew I had read it before. (The curse of a rather unusual memory.)

    3. I may agree with you.
      I’m pretty sure the same thing happened in a previous case – Chris stepped in the case, the renter employee responsible for the case left the company, case dropped.

  4. The damage recovery scam is VERY profitable for car rental companies. It is low hanging fruit, charge credit cards for damage see what sticks.

  5. ” By your account, Enterprise lost the credit card dispute, which means it couldn’t prove that you were at fault.”

    Just to clarify, this isn’t correct. What it means is that Enterprise didn’t provide enough information to the credit card company that the charge was valid and fell within the merchant agreement. It could be something as simple as they missed a deadline to provide information back to the CC company.

      1. The point is that sustaining the chargeback has everything to do with what the LW signed and the merchant agreement. It has little to do with the validity of the damage claim. That validity wasn’t part of the process at all.

  6. Who in hell are the six people who think that, although the Enterprise agents at check-out explicitly owned up to damage on the car, a subsequent renter is liable to pay for it? Especially if they subsequently refuse to produce the repair records that your own insurance company, if it needed to get involved, would demand? This defies belief. That being said, this is a case where OP really should have snapped some cellphone pictures of the damage before driving off.

    While other rental agencies cluster at airports, Enterprise deals mostly with the in-town replacement car market. It looks to me as though they depend on this less sophisticated demographic to be easily cowed by phony demands for nonexistent damage.

    1. I was one of those 6 people (thought I’d be the only one), Why, because anyone who accepts a car with damage and DOESN’T take photos is a serious red flag. I start thinking that 1) They did take pictures, and 2) They damaged the car even more, and their pictures would prove that.

      1. Exactly. Also remember that this is NOT a “inexperienced” consumer. This same person used Chris’s influence a few months ago when she had issues with her car dealership.

        With her recent issues at the car dealership, as soon as Enterprise tried to hand her the keys to a damaged car and says “don’t worry about it”, alarm bells would have started going off. If that’s all they had, fine, but a few pictures or a signed statement about the damage would have been a no brainer.

        I voted no because I don’t buy her story.

        (And no, I don’t work for a car rental company. I agree that they use damage claims to generate additional revenues)

  7. I, too, had a situation with Enterprise regarding prior damage on a rental car. The guy going over the car with us said not to worry about it. Or any of the numerous dings and scratches. Red Flag #1. He declined to note said damage on our contract. Red Flag #2. We demanded he note damage and started taking pictures galore (with time & date stamp). Agent inside pushed us to buy their insurance. Said our USAA insurance would not cover damage caused by us or anyone else. Red Flag #3. Said our AMEX credit card auto rental insurance would not cover any damage. Red Flag #4. Enterprise also didn’t provide the car we ordered, but gave us a so-called “better” car at the same price. Red Flag #5. Spent over and hour just getting the car, which also was not filled to “F” and demanded to be remedied before we left. First/Last time we rented from Enterprise. And yes, we took plenty of photos when we returned the car. They did not charge us for any damage.

    1. I love Enterprise, but yeah they do that with me as well even though I’m an elite renter with them. Agents need to push on upselling, and it’s what they have to do. My guy told me that corporate was considering going back to noting any and all damage a renter wanted to, because then it would discourage renters from taking pictures, and those little X’s on the rental agreement where damage is recorded are easier for the damage recovery unit to dispute then actual photos.

        1. Yeah it wouldn’t work for me either, but a lot of people I imagine would look at the rental agreement with all the marks the renter want’s to put and think they don’t need to photograph the car.

    2. good move on your part. I take photos, videos. “don’t worry about it?” Yup. Look into this camera and smile as you say that! And, your name is Sam Smith, right? Today is 7 November 2014 and it’s 1035AM here in South Succotash, Mississippi. Now, lookit the nice dents on this jalopy. Here. And here. And here. etc….

    3. My experience was similar.

      I rented one time from Enterprise at their Oakland Airport location in 2009. It took almost one hour upon arriving at their location before I could drive off. It took 40 minutes to return the car. They didn’t do the damage scam with me maybe it was the movie that I took of the car or the markup of the paperwork or that my employer had a corporate rate with and they wanted us to do more business with them (we had a choice of 3 car rental companies to choose from most of us chose Budget or Hertz).

      Why I rented from Enterprise for this time instead of Hertz? I was staying at a non-event hotel and in order to keep my overall expenses at the same level as the event hotel, the rental rate from Enterprise put me at 80% of the overall cost; whereas, the Hertz rate would have put me at the 115% of the overall cost.

  8. Everybody now carries a HD video camera on their phone. Take 30 seconds and walk around the car and video everything, bumpers, backs of mirrors, roof etc. If there is actual damage, take more pictures. There is no excuse now that everyone has a camera on them ALL THE TIME!

      1. In France, I rented a car couple of years ago with a big dent at the driver’s door and the front bumper with a lot of scratches. When I asked to mark the damages, the guy almost painted black all the door and the front bumper at the renting form – I believe if I had returned the car without the door and the bumper, it would be ok 😉

        1. France! I rented a car there in the past and it was located a block away in a parking structure. I asked how I could check it for damage before signing. The clerk just marked EVERY place on the car as damaged! Of, course, when I picked up the car, it turned out the clerk was accurate. No one looked at the car when I returned it and there were no claims made.

  9. Why is the burden of photographing on the customer ? Really, not everybody has an iPhone, iPad or camera with them. Shouldn’t the car rental company be responsible for record keeping, notations etc. on a form at the time the car is picked up, the way it was always done for years? At the very least they should advise people to either photograph the car or fill out a form at the time of pickup instead of withholding this important information.
    I don’t understand; we pay money for services but we are doing all the work ??

    Geez, about three weeks ago we rented an Alamo car (no damage) but I didn’t photograph it (don’t have an iPhone) for any dings, dents, scratches etc. Should I be worried ?

    1. This issue comes up about every month or so on Elliott. I think it’s because that with millions of cars being rented a year, and a certain percentage of unscrupulous or negligent return agents, there’s bound to be a dozen or so letters written to Chris on the issue.

      Nonetheless, who wants it to be them and be the unlucky few?

      Here’s the answer to your question: The car rental company writes the rental contract and I call them “F-U” contracts: They are written with lots of small fonts, lots of extra language, etc. to bury your liability and to max it out for them. You’re in a rush to pick up your car, sometimes there is a line behind you, and you have the magna carta in front of you. It’s a lot of pressure to see that you’re on the hook for the slightest damage to $20,000 worth of equipment.

      In theory, if there was no damage whatsoever on the car (perfectly clean), you’re (likely) off the hook. They will probably not charge you for damage that simply doesn’t exist. The danger is when you get a car that’s been used a little, with minor dents and dings as nearly every car that’s over a few months old has, and then they come after you over it.

      1. “It’s a lot of pressure to see that you’re on the hook for the slightest damage to $20,000 worth of equipment.”

        Give me a break. I’ve been out of the industry for a while, and every time, EVERY TIME, I’ve rented a car, it has been made painstakingly clear (usually multiple times) that if I decline CDW, I’m responsible for anything that happens to the car. When I was a agent and later manager, I trained my agents to say the same thing. Generally, I’d get one of 3 responses:

        1. “Yeah, that’s fine, where do I initial to decline?”

        2. “I have MY OWN insurance.”

        3. Cut me off mid sentence/try to grab the clipboard away.

        It’s common knowledge that if you decline CDW and something happens, you’re on the hook. NO ONE wants to pay for rental car damage, but the number of people who will go to great lengths to weasel out of paying for damage which happened while they had the car is unreal. Even more unsettling is how 95% of the commenters here just take this lady at her word. That’s all it is: her word. No photos. No paperwork. Just her word. You wanna know something sad? Renters lie about damage ALL THE TIME. But no one here is even CONSIDERING that possibility.

        1. I think you didn’t understand me. I didn’t mean to imply that the renter is under pressure by the agent to not understand the liability. I wanted to say that people don’t take the agent seriously enough due to distractions which travelers are too often subjected to. If people took the agent seriously, which I do, they’d think twice before renting a car AND I DO. I look for other options when available: public transit, hotels and accommodations near the attractions, or even just sometimes taxis. If a rental car is going to come out to 50 bucks a day after CDW, then it’s worth asking is it worth it?

          That said, I’m reminded of another recurring Elliott recurring issue: Airline fees. Sure, why not. Let’s have auto rentals advertise their price INCLUDING CDW!!! It’s worth considering: The rental agencies get their proper payment without customers trying to rip them off and the customer gets an up-front price before booking.

          Fair enough?

  10. If Katherine was intelligent to contact you, let’s figure that she follows you in the many formats that you publish. So, why the heck did she not follow any of the las 100000 pieces of advise? Take pictures, have your contract notated and signed off on. I love. Pay attention followers. the MAster, Chris suggested a new app. “Record360”. It works, I tried it and it works well on my car. The credit card company probably put a 90 day dispute on the charge until Enterprise signs off on it. I think that Katherine is going to lose, but I would fight it out all the way.

    1. I don’t trust “cloud-based”. Was at a military conference once where some smarty-pants toads had convinced the bosses that one copy of Word, Powerpoint and Excel on the server would be wonderful, and there’d be no need to buy copies for all the desktops. During the conference, attended by folks from around the globe, the server DIED. Couldn’t get at ANYTHING!

      I had not been aware that the J3 had been cross-trained from the medical corps. He immediately performed a procto surgery on the responsible individuals, and, although his technique was somewhat coarse, it certainly was effective in getting the message across about reliability…..

      1. Nowadays, most decent clouds are designed with redundancy: There are multiple servers in a cluster so if one goes down, the rest do the workload. And sometimes they even have copies in multiple locations.

        1. Sure. And, if the net access goes south, you have no data. I’ll keep mine on multiple externals – they’re cheap, and handy.

  11. I’d still like to hear of someone like me, with a zero deductible on their insurance, getting one of these scams and telling the company “I’m filing it with my insurance” and see what happens. I wonder how fast they would drop the claim rather than fight USAA.

  12. Is this Enterprise location…a franchisee or a corporate location? Over the 20 years that I have rented cars, I won’t need to use all of my fingers on my right hand to count the number of times that I had an issue with a corporate location. It has been a different experience with franchisee location.

    Typically (but not always 100%), a corporate location values a long-term customer as well as have better training such as customer service skills, etc. For example, I have a 90% hotel upgrade experience at corporate locations versus a 30% hotel upgrade experience at franchisee locations…the corporate wants to reward me; whereas, the franchisee wants to sell the upgraded room.

    It has been the same upgrade experience with rental cars…I have a 80% upgrade experience with corporate locations versus a 25% upgrade experience with a franchisee location. Again, the corporate location wants to reward me; whereas, the franchisee wants to rent the upgraded car.

    There are airports with only franchisee locations so you don’t have an option. Also, it takes time to call to find if a location is corporate or a franchisee. Of course, I have good experiences with franchisee locations but I think that the odds of encountering a bad experience is higher at a franchisee location since corporate oversight isn’t there per se.

  13. I have been reading this blog for over 10 years and it seems like the majority of the rental car issues comes from Enterprise.

    Maybe this is an unfair comparison or analogy but I look at Enterprise as Spirit Airlines. They advertised a low price but hit you with adders (i.e. do you want a door with your car?).

    Back in 2000, a co-worker that was visiting our PHX office for a month rented a car from Enterprise for the weekend and it was something like $ 9.99 per day before taxes, fees. I don’t know what their current rates but I know that their rates in the past have been lower than most (if not all) of the other car rental companies.

    Maybe my analysis is flawed but the general expenses (i.e. cars, buildings, employees, insurance, maintenance, etc.) for car rental companies should be similar (i.e. within 10% of each other). If that is the case then how can Enterprise make a profit that is enough to sustain themselves for the long haul? It has been my contention that they do the damageinsurance scam to make up the revenues that they lose by having a low rental rates.

    My preferred car rental company is Hertz. They are not the lowest price but I have only experienced one time this ‘damage scan’ with Hertz in 20 years and that was at a franchisee location in Canada (they wanted to charge me $ 100 for a ding to the door…i show them my pictures on my phone and they agreed with me that it was already there).

    1. Enterprise currently has their weekend $9.99 rate.

      How do they justify such low rates, easy REALLY big fleets of cars. Cars sitting around doing nothing are a “loss” for the company it’s better to rent them at cost or near cost. They can rent a car at cost and make their profit on just one upgrade or fee.

      I would LOVE to rent a car without doors, that would be so cool. Wear my leather long coat, sunglasses, have some hot model ask where my door is, and get to say some line like “Somewhere between the spleen and liver of the Russian mobster I beat with it.”

    2. The $9.99 weekend deal comes with a 100 mile limit per day. It’s not even offered in my part of the US, because there is nothing within sight-seeing distance that’s under 100 miles round trip. Or, that is what I was told when I tried to use this advertised deal.

  14. “The damage in question didn’t even look like damage; it looked more like bad repair work or an imperfection.”

    That line makes sense to me and I can imagine how this likely played out. The car is new and has an imperfection or they get it back from a previous repair and it’s a lousy job that they’re not sure if they’ll accept or have the work redone. But before any decision gets made they send the car out the door for a month. By the time it comes back everybody has totally forgotten about it.

    But assuming that is how it played out they’d clearly have records of a previous repair just having been done or that it was a brand-new vehicle going out for the first time. And I can’t imagine this scenario happening without the renter making sure the pre-existing damage was noted on the paperwork. Even if they didn’t take pictures who wouldn’t want a detail like that noted?

  15. ” the regional manager who was handling this claim has left the company…”.
    Yeah! How it’s timely convenient? But it sounds fishy to the roof and a pre formatted Microsoft Word Save Face standard letter model to me.

  16. You have taught me that I need to ‘CYA’ whenever I rent a car by taking lots of photos and/or make a video. Sad that we have to do this. Katherine has now learned her lesson.

  17. When I rent for personal travel, I take pictures and video (with work, it’s covered by the state contract). However, not everyone has a cell phone with which to take pictures and video. I’d run out of digits if I tried to count the number of posts over the course of reading this site with stories like this that commenters make the statement “Everyone has a cell phone – there’s no excuse.”

    While the rental repair scam is an obvious concern, I’m always miffed when my rental doesn’t have a full tank of gas.

  18. “But the bottom line is this: I did not damage the car.”

    Well, that settles it then, doesn’t it? Rental car customers are honest about damage 100% of the time, right? Dammit, why doesn’t Enterprise take everything their customers say at face value?

    I don’t even see specifically where she says the damage was pre-existing, just that she says “it didn’t even look like damage.” Back in my rental days I would estimate 90% of customers dealing with claims tried to pass it off as “wear and tear” or “not really damage.”

    I also find It interesting that this is the 2nd time the OP has run into a damage claim with cars. And both times, her response was simply, “I didn’t do it.” No photos. Nothing in writing. Just her word.

    Sorry, but I’ve heArd the same exact line from so many renters who simply didn’t want to pay for damage. Given how people feel about rental companies on here, I realize my position will be unpopular, but I think the OP is just trying to find a way to avoid taking responsibility for damage that happened while she had the car.

    Notice I didn’t say damage she caused; when you decline CDW, you agree to be held responsible for any and all damage to the vehicle during the time you’re renting it.

    1. Back in my rental days I would estimate 90% of customers dealing with
      claims tried to pass it off as “wear and tear” or “not really damage.”

      I’d be curious how you substantiate that number?

      1. It’s from personal experience; I don’t have past damage reports/customer statements to prove it. But ask anyone who works/used to work for a rental agency.

        Why do you automatically take this lady 100% at her word? Esp. After CE helped her get out of another damage claim? Do you really beeline that rental customers are honest 100% of the time?

        1. I don’t believe I made any representation about whether I believed this lady or not, nor would it be relevant to my question. That’s a deflection when you cannot answer the question. Old old trick. Didn’t Adam try that?

          Representative examples would be useful. For example, I have certain trends that I see in my practice. One trend, I have numerous clients who try to hide assets. In every case, without exception, they put in the name of a close relative. And in every case it fails because it’s a well known con.

          What are some of the items of damage that renters routinely try to pass off as wear and tear?

          1. 1. Tire damage. I have had customers say that they shouldn’t be responsible for anything that happens to the tires “because things happen on the road.” As a general rule, I wouldn’t charge for tire damage unless there was serious damage to the sidewall of the tire. Yet, when there were huge gashes in the sidewall, many customers tried to pass it off as normal wear and tear.

            2. Weather damage. You can disagree with the policy as much as you want, but when you decline CDW, you agree to pay for any damage which occurs while the car is in your possession. Most customers who sustained weather damage argued they shouldn’t be responsible for acts of God. Even though I specifically told them they’d be responsible if they chose not to purchase CDW.

            3. Bumper damage. There was an article several months ago where a bumper literally FELL OFF the rental car. Yet many commenters were claiming THAT was wear and tear. I’m sure if they got their personal car back from the valet with the bumper fallen off, they’d just shrug and chalk it up to wear and tear.

  19. Not just yes, but HELL YES is my answer to this poll. Even if the renter was to blame, how can they just arbitrarily charge her $500 with no actual repair bills? I’m willing to bet they never repaired the damage and trotted out the same car to rent to next poor victim. I’m not about to boycott Enterprise though, there’s a story about nearly every car rental company trying out this same scheme and if 1% of the people they try it on just pay up without question, why not? It also depends on the location you rent from, as most car rental locations are now franchises anyway. Some are owned by honest people, some by total con artists. I’ve rented a few times from the Newark airport and haven’t had a problem yet.

  20. Never accept a damaged car, Chris? That means in many cities, I wouldn’t even be able to rent a car at all in the United States.
    Just about every car has a multitude of damages, scratches, dents, etc.

    Must not have been much damage for it to be $500.

    I hope it is resolved.

        1. I don’t. Why wouldn’t they?

          But with the continuing consolidation in the car rental world, the company who’s list you are on might just buy the one you use.

  21. I rented a car this week (from enterprise actually) and took pics when i received it. I found a small dent a some bumper scratches and the rep went to great lengths to tell me if the damage didn’t fit into a plastic circle measure they had, they didn’t charge for them. I still insisted they note them on the paperwork. When I dropped off the car i was again taking pictures and the rep asked me if i was thinking of buying that kind of car (he thought that’s why i was taking pics) when I explained i always took pics before and after in case of damage claims, he said he’d been working there a month and i was the first person he’d ever seen do that. Take pictures of the car people!!!!!!!!

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