Scam alert: don’t buy Southwest tickets on Craigslist
Every now and then I come across a hard luck case with no easy fix. William Marleau’s story is just the latest. He bought tickets on Southwest Airlines through Craigslist and ended up being drawn into a clever scam that may force him to pay for his flight twice.
Marleau purchased tickets after seeing an online ad last November from Portland to Albany. He took his flight without incident, but four months later a Southwest Airlines “collections specialist” phoned him to say the tickets were bogus and that he need to pay Southwest for them again or the airline would call a collections agency.
What happened? Marleau explains:
The person whose credit card was used to purchase the ticket online disputed the charge. The credit card company took the money from Southwest and now, because I was the person who flew, I am being asked to pay the outstanding amount or be turned into collections.
I asked Southwest for its side of the story. Here’s what spokeswoman Linda Rutherford had to say:
Mr. Marleau paid an undisclosed amount of cash to someone on Craigslist to purchase a Southwest ticket from Portland to Albany. On November 5, 2007 the “someone” he paid used a stolen credit card to buy a $715 ticket off of southwest.com.
The following month the owner of the credit card saw the charge and disputed it with their issuing bank. On December 17, 2007 the cardholder signed an Affirmation Of Unauthorized Use letter.
We received notice of the disputed charge from our credit card processor on February 17, 2008. We accepted the chargeback on February 28, 2008, and it was at this time credit card company took the money from Southwest Airlines.
We contacted Mr. Marleau on March 18, 2008 to inform him of the situation and to make arrangements with him for payment of the flight he took.
That seems fine. But why not pursue the person who perpetrated the scam rather than the passenger?
Bottom line, Southwest has never been paid for the flight Mr. Marleau took. It is our business policy to collect payment from the person who flew.
I understand Mr. Marleau’s frustration. It isn’t that Southwest is not interested in helping sort this out properly. In fact, we have a whole team in finance dedicated to stopping fraud before it happens. Even with our best efforts, we still receive millions of dollars each year in chargebacks.
That policy works well for Southwest, but not for Marleau, who will now have to pay for the same ticket twice. So I asked Rutherford if Southwest was aware that it was basically asking one of its passengers to pay for the same ticket again.
It’s a difficult situation, but we cannot protect a customer who chooses to make a questionable purchase on Craigslist for a Southwest Airlines flight.
We wish we could protect every consumer who is a victim of an online ticket sales scheme, but we do not have the means to accept millions of dollars of chargebacks each year.
We have many people at work in our finance department to catch fraud before it occurs (such as cancelling a ticket before a flight is taken), but we cannot catch all of it.
We have told Mr. Marleau the same thing we tell all the unsuspecting Internet shoppers…there are unscrupulous people out their waiting to defraud well intentioned consumers. Never purchase anything off the Internet unless you can verify the source. For Southwest Airlines, we recommend customers purchase travel on Southwest Airlines only at Southwest.com.
While I understand Southwest’s position — and the reasoning behind it — I’m still troubled by it. While the airline will probably be able to collect its $715 from Marleau and others like him, I think they’re going after the wrong people.
Shouldn’t Southwest be prosecuting the criminals who sell these fraudulent tickets? Threatening a passenger with a collections agency referral is turning him into a victim twice, in my opinion. That’s not right.
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Comments
47 Responses to “Scam alert: don’t buy Southwest tickets on Craigslist”
Please share your thoughts...
C’mon Chris - I’m with WN here - why would ‘Mr. Marleau’ think that someone would be able to buy a ticket off Southwest’s website for less than he could? Why would he not simply use the cash to buy the ticket himself?
Why? Because he though he was getting something for nothing - a better deal, a better price, something better than he could get it for himself. Off an internet web posting.
There is not free lunch. Something for nothing is nothing for something. If it sounds too good to be true - it is.
The other response that came to mind: “What was he thinking?”
WN knows who Mr. Marleau is, it does not know who bought the ticket.
And what ever happened to credit card matching before you fly? Every airline tells you to show up with the credit card you used to buy the ticket, but, if you check in online and do everything on line you never see a human, so that fraud prevention element is never used.
Anyway, Mr. Marleau thought he was getting something for nothing, or at least something for less, and he got scammed. An honest person cannot be scammed.
Chris I agree with Joe on this one…
William unknowingly purchased a stolen service and then used that service. Unlike a TV that can just seized, once a service is used its used. Someone has to pay for it. Why not the person that used the service?
I feel for him getting scammed but Southwest didn’t take part in the scam. Why should Southwest pay for his ticket?
This just reinforces your on going point that travel, in general, is a service and should be purchased from a reputable source. Aren’t you the one that recommends that you buy directly from the airlines or a reputable travel agent?
When you don’t its definately “buyer beware.”
Chris–
Jumping on the bandwagon here. If you buy a scalped ticket for a concert, you take the chance of seeing a show or being shown the door or being arrested. Why is this any different?
Are consumers today THAT dumb? What did he pay for the flight? My guess is that it was a ridiculous lowball price. He probably got what he deserved.
You cannot go after the purchaser, because you don’t know him. It was a stolen card and the names used were under the name of the legitimate cardholder.
The solution is to slap the guy in the face and tell him to “wake up”. As Joe said, buy from southwest.com or from someone that has an agreement to sell Southwest like a travel agency. Last time I checked, Craigslist was not a travel agency.
What’s next? I bought a cruise on Adult Friend Finder complete with a swinging couple in my cabin and when I went to board, they told me I couldn’t?
I’m just trying to see this from the consumer’s perspective. I understand Southwest’s policy, as I said, but if this happened to me, I’d be pretty upset. (In fact, this has happened to me before, and it was horrible.) People! How about a little empathy?
Chris,
While I feel for the guy, Southwest is going after the proper guy for payment. Southwest can’t go after the scammer because they likely don’t know who he is, or can’t recover from him. All Southwest knows is that the ticket the writer booked was booked fraudulently. In fact, from Southwest’s perspective, the passenger could be the scammer. (I am not in any way saying he is, just that Southwest can’t tell the difference.)
I’m sure Southwest would love to find the criminal! If they had any idea who he was and/or had any chance of recovery from him, they would. However, in the meantime, they still need to be paid for the flight.
The airline ticket was stolen goods, and it has always been the case that whoever has the stolen goods has to give them up, whether or not they were purchased in good faith. If you buy a stolen car, you don’t get to keep the car, and the rightful owner doesn’t have to pay you to get it back. Since the “good” in this case was an airline flight, Southwest will instead need to recover payment for the ticket from the person who used it.
In addition, if Southwest started a policy of “eating” fraudulently purchased tickets, it would be begging for massive abuse.
I feel sorry for the person that wrote in, but Southwest is not who he should be getting upset with, it’s the criminal who took his money for something he stole.
SirWired
Chris,
I can empathize with people who get taken by a supposedly legit source but as said above, if I scalp a ticket to an event for lower than face value and then find out that it was either a fake or get stopped at the gate because it was a fraudulent purchase, the problem is mine and not anyone elses. William should file a complaint with local law enforcement and get recourse through the legal system. If he was taken, he’s probably not the only one.
Time for a little nuance:
1) Mr M is an idiot. He tried to get a free lunch and ended up with a doubly paid lunch.
2) Southwest needs to get paid. In this case, they have to weigh being fair to ID theft people and being fair to their customers.
They *choose* here in favor of the ID theft victim, and against their customer. While sympathetic towards the ID theft victim, I find it odd that a company *chooses* to willingly make a customer pay twice.
Also, if I were a company and I learned that my products were fraudulently resold, I would be all over that. You can’t get it not to happen, but it does hurt consumer confidence on your company. Now it’s a craigslist scam, but if this is possible, pretty soon scammy travel agencies will pop up.If it happens too much, a customer can not trust anymore that his ticket will get him anywhere. That might make a customer choose a competitor.
So, I think SW is penny-wise, dollar-foolish here. They are certainly entitled to get paid for their service. But they should also keep consumer confidence in their company high. It’s hard for a company to think long-term these days, but if consumers don’t trust your company anymore, that hurts you way more, than getting a couple of no-cure-no-pay lawyers to hunt down these fraudulent ticket folks. That is way more efficient than letting jibbed customers go after them.
One last remark on the ‘free lunch’ argument. SW is a superdiscount airline. So customers expect *very* low prices. Mr M did (initially) pay a very low price for his ticket. That is in line with what he expected from SW. In Europe, Ryanair flies you around for 99 eurocent (about $5 by now). So alarm bells don’t necessarily go off when a customer sees a low price.
I have to agree with most of the other people commenting. It is a shame for Mr. Marleau. It’s not fair for him that he paid the thief and then he has to pay Southwest. However, it’s also very appropriate for Southwest to seek payment from people who tried to cheat them.
In this case Mr. Marleau was trying to avoid paying Southwest for a ticket, so instead he bought it off Craig’s list. It’s against Southwest policy to resell airfare that has been purchased, just as it’s against their policy to sell your Rapid Rewards tickets. This is almost the same type of situation as buying Rapid Rewards tickets (or “drink coupons” as they are sometimes sold).
from Section 15 of the WN contract of carriage:
A. No person shall be entitled to transportation except upon presentation of a valid ticket or
proof of identification acceptable to Carrier that transportation has been purchased through
Carrier’s electronic ticketing or Ticketless Travel systems or through the reservations or
electronic ticketing systems of a another airline or agent authorized to sell transportation on
Carrier under a codeshare agreement. Such ticket/electronic ticketing documentation shall
entitle the person to transportation only between the points of origin and destination.
B. A ticket that has been altered, mutilated, or improperly issued shall not be valid.
Since Mr. Marleau’s ticket was improperly issued (to him) by an unauthorized agency, it was an invalid ticket.
As a former employee of Southwest, I know that they have a team who spends time tracking down tickets that are sold online.. whether it’s someone selling Rapid Rewards tickets, incentive passes (called red passes, blue passes, and green passes), or someone reselling an unused credit. They take it seriously, and when they are able to prove it they will either reject the tickets, or even prosecute if it’s a big enough abuse of the system.
Anyway, my thoughts are Southwest has a right to seek payment for the flights that were taken. It is Mr. Marleau’s responsibility to seek payment from the scammer from whom he bought the ticket.
I agree with Jasper that Mr. M was very foolish, but that airline pricing structures mean that it wasn’t necessarily clear that this was a scammed or stolen ticket. Consolidators sell airline tickets cheaper than customers can find on a website all of the time - Vayama, for example, often sells tickets to Europe for a few $100s less than buying directly from the airline.
A savvy traveler knows that it’s pretty darn unlikely (if not impossible) that the same would be true for Southwest, but the average Joe might not.
As the victim - just a few words in my defense - there are SW Ads all over the interent selling Rapid Rewards tickets for flights for sums that are cheaper than those advertised on SW’s website - this was one such Ad so while I was after a deal, I was not after a “free lunch”. Also, Chris was able to surface more details from his contacts at SW than I was able to - they have been very tight lipped with me and that has created lots of frustration. SW indicated to me that the dispute on the card did not happen until March of 2008. If the dispute was really filed on 12/17/07 - this was days before my flight and I would have preferred that SW follow-up with me at that time rather than 4 months later when it really seems out of the blue. Following up 4 months later lets all trails go cold and comes as much more of a shock. The timing of everything and the way SW has presented the information (or not presented it) is what has been really frustrating.
SW has indicated they have teams of people working on fraud cases like this - what they told me is that because the amount is less than $10K, they won’t work on my case.
It has also been suggested by a few legal resources I have discussed this case with that the cupability in the end really does fall on SW because they do not require the user to enter the security ID number on the back of the credit card when customers make reservations, but to fight this costs >$700.
SW also repeatedly stated to me that Rapid Rewards tickets can not be resold, but by allowing them to be resold through outlets like Ebay and Craigslist, there is a market in which these scams can sneak through.
In the end, mine is a story of frustration and I hope others learn as much from it as I do. I am still disappointed with SW’s response to this whole matter, especially when it comes to their communcation and tactics in trying to get this money out of me as quickly as possible.
They guy shouldn’t pay. He should dispute the debt (let them take you to collections – even if they go to a reporting agency the agency has to list that the debt is disputed on a credit report). Southwest will not have the balls to go into court over this. If they claim his ticket wasn’t valid they shouldn’t have let him on the flight. Once they did it’s their problem, not his. Nate – you mention the contract of carriage – exactly when did the customer agree to the terms of the contract? I don’t think he did – anyway, I think a judge would be likely to find that Southwest waived any claim that the ticket was invalid under the contract of carriage by allowing the customer to board the flight. I say fight it all the way.
OK - wjm - explain why you decided to buy an airline ticket on Craigslist?
Was it a ‘ticket’ or was did you buy rapid rewards credits?
Why would you buy a ticket from someone instead of simply buying direct from SW?
I would like a simply explanation of that one please?
Here is my suspicion = because you checked and this ‘guy’ was offering you a cheaper, i.e., much cheaper, ticket that you could get either in the WN website or from another online travel provider.
If this is the case, then you got what you deserved. I mean what were you thinking? How is this ‘guy’ on CL going to get you a better price than buying travel from the provider? You thought you were putting a fast one on WN and you got what you bought - nothing.
If I’m wrong, explain away WJM.
Rick to answer your question about the contract of carriate.. the contract of carriage lists who it applies to:
Passenger transportation by Southwest Airlines Co. (hereafter “Carrier”) is subject to the following terms and conditions, in addition to any terms and conditions printed on or in any ticket or Ticketless Travel authorization, specified on Carrier’s Internet site with respect to electronic ticketing, or published in Carrier’s schedules. By purchasing a ticket or accepting transportation, the passenger agrees to be bound thereby.
So even if you argue that he did not accept the contract of carriage when he bought his ticket (by purchasing it from a non-authorized source), by accepting transportation on the airline he accepts the contract of carriage. I understand this is pretty standard among most carriers and their contract of carriage.
William, I apologize if I came across as accusing you of being dishonest. Who among us doesn’t want to save money when possible? Whether it’s using priceline/expedia/hotwire, or looking around for the best possible price.
Southwest tickets/Rapid Reward tickets are available all over the place on the internet. However, even though it’s available, it doesn’t make it legitimate. The Rapid Rewards program specifically says resale of the tickets is against the rules. Also, employees are told that resale of their incentive passes is against the rules. Unfortunately not everyone follows the rules, and some people resell things they have no right to sell. Of course this could lead to other people scamming others because it seems like it’s an acceptable practice. What you see as SW ads all over the place on the internet are not actually ads placed by Southwest. They are placed by these people who are abusing the system.
My comments were made about the actual situation. You purchased your ticket from an unauthorized source, and the airline is entitled to seek payment for the travel that you actually used.
In this case it sounds like Southwest has mishandled the process in which they go about seeking that payment. There is no excuse for treating you poorly in what is obviously a delicate situation. They have always made a point that customer service is what sets Southwest apart. Each one of my pay stubs had the same message printed on it the entire time I was at Southwest: “This paycheck is provided by our customers.” It sounds like this is a major failure on the part of the Southwest agents to remember that simple concept.
The thing I don’t understand is the massive delay between the illicit purchase and SouthWest figuring out that they were defrauded.
If SouthWest implemented measures to ensure a timely response to fraud claims, the victim in this case could’ve been alerted prior to his flight. While this would still leave him out some money, it would be significantly more fair than allowing him to fly then making the complaint.
Joe - from your question about a “ticket” vs. rapid rewards credits - I guess the answer is that I thought I was purchasing a rapid rewards voucher earned by someone else, so I guess this would mean credits, to use your word.
I did not believe that this guy was able to purchase a ticket cheaper than I was able to, but that this guy had an assest that he was not going to use so he wanted to make some money for it. I also did not believe that I was “putting a fast one” on SW, having flown on SW previously using a friend’s rapid reward ticket, I knew they could be booked in another person’s name, but I was unaware that SW considers the sale of them “illegal.”
As far as price goes, all of the ads I saw for rapid rewards flights seemed to average around the same price for a RT ticket and the price I paid can best be described as the going rate for rapid reward vouchers, which, while at a discount to what was advertised on SW’s website, was consistant enough with all the other ads that it did not stand out - it just happened to be the one I got first reply from.
As far as risks go, in the end, the reason I purchase the ticket off of CL was because I had a name, contact phone number and contact email address for the person I was interacting with. I met this person and they did not come off as being shady, but normal and amiable. They provided me with a confirmation number of my booking with SW and I was able to verify with SW that this was valid and they had my booking. I even communicated with this person and received replys after I verified the booking. The email address and phone number have been provided to the police but since so much time has passed, there is little they can do. While the email address is still “active,” it appears to have been abandoned and the phone number has turned out to be a “pay as you go” cell phone number so there is no contract to chase after.
If SW recieved notice of a fraudulant charge on 12/17/07, I really wish they would have contacted me then - perhaps this person could have been caught. I also wish that SW would have shared as much information about the order of events with me as they did with Chris since what they told me only added to my confusion.
Hopefully by outlining this scam, others who read this will gain some measure of benefit from my story. I’m sorry you feel that I “got” what I “deserved” - I don’t think anyone deserves to be scammed.
Is it Southwest’s job to scour Craigslist for people who are using stolen credit cards to defraud a third party?
They are in the business to sell tickets via a channel (via internet site or reservations) ,,,,if someone steps outside that arena…well ….they are on their own.
SW is not making him a victim twice. They are simply collecting from the person who benefited from the service they provided. Seems logical no?
When will people learn….if its TOO GOOD to be true….it ALWAYS is.
There are no free lunches and no shortcuts….unfortunately.
wjm - I suppose another question is:
Did you know [or have a reasonable basis to suspect] that reselling rapid rewards awards was against WN policy?
If you did, well, then you knew what you were doing was against their contract.
You are bound by the contract regardless of whether you know what it says. . .
lessons learned.
@ Tim: It is SW’s business to make sure their customers trust them and to treat their customers with respect. SW is very big on it’s ‘love’ theme. Their stock abbreviation isn’t LUV for nothing.
When I read this story, I see Mr M taking a risk I would not take, but also I see SW bashing a ignorant customer, and ignoring fraudulent sales of their product. They could have been nicer to him. They *chose* not to. So they *chose* not to treat their customer with love. I take not of that.
From their web site (http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/?ref=abtsw_gn):
“Our goal is to solve a problem when it happens, and we empower and encourage our Frontline Employees to take the necessary steps to resolve the situation.”
http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/mission.html”
“The mission of Southwest Airlines is dedication to the highest quality of Customer Service delivered with a sense of warmth, friendliness, individual pride, and Company Spirit.”
I think they did not deal with ‘warmth and friendliness’ in this case.
The love theme is a huge difference between SW and for instance Ryanair. SW gives you no frills, but they promise to be nice to you. Ryanair pretty much tells you in advance, that if you’re paying little, you should expect little. And if you have problems, you can go f* yourself.
So, when I fly Ryanair, and someone doesn’t care about me, I think “well, I was warned”. When SW pulls something on me, I’d think “Hey, but what’s up with the lack of luv?”.
Some people are misreading the dates. The credit card company recieved notice of a fraudulant charge on 12/17/07, not Southwest! Southwest did not get notified by the credit card company until February. Therefore Southwest could not deal with the fraud before the ticket was used. By the time the credi card company had gone throught their procedures, it was too late.
That is what the scammers play on, the delays that occur before that fraud is actually recognized. Southwest has had notices on their website not to buy tickets off of Craiqs list or other non-southwest sites. If this had been a legitimate ticket, the seller could have gotten a refund or banked the funds for a future flight as Southwest does not charge for ticket changes as many other airlines do.
How was he able to board the flight if the ticket wasn’t in his name? I didn’t think the tickets were transferable. Also, why doesn’t the passenger provide what details he does have on the person who sold him the tickets? Craigslist can and certainly does help to catch those who post fraudulently, as they have shown in the past couple of weeks. The seller is certainly not untraceable.
The bottom line: Mr. M purchased through an unauthorized source, at a price he isn’t sharing, and knowing the source was unauthorized. He made similar purchases in days past, even though the process was not authorized by SouthWest.
Empathy - no. He put himself in the situation, he received a service and he needs to pay for it.
Sympathy - not hardly. This is the kind of thing that keeps crooks in business.
I haven’t had to pay more than book for any flight I’ve taken, ever. I’ve always booked them through an agent, through the airline, or directly from the airline on-line, as they encourage us to do.
It’s nice that Mr. M has chosen to share his story, but if you are dealing with a criminal element and perpetrating fraud, eventually you will be the one who is stung.
Wendy: “How was he able to board when the ticket was not in his name”
Easy. It was. WN allows Rapid Rewards tickets to be issued in anyones name.
What I do not understand is that if it was a rapid reqards free ticket, how there was credit card fraud?
Chris - this one smells. . . . think it through here - the story makes no sense and seems to change.
I’d be very curious to know how much Mr. M. paid for his ticket. I think that would shed a lot of light on this discussion.
What I don’t understand.. why make him pay the full fare? Why not charge him the lowest fare for the route available at that time?
I’m with the general consensus here. Something is rotten in Denmark. SW was right in siding with the ID Theft case.
I use Craigslist for finding employees, but we have all heard of cases in the news of scams happening all the time.
Mr. M, Where is your receipt for the CL purchase? Have you considered checking with the Major Crimes division of your local police department and see if they will be able to pursue things from your side. When someone attempted to clean out my bank account, this is what my local police department recommended.
Expecting the victim, AKA Southwest to foot the bill however… Poor Form
I think that even though Mr. M thought he was purchasing a Rapid Rewards ticket, he was in fact purchasing something like an “unused non-refundable” ticket. He pays the thief for the ticket, and the thief buys his ticket on Southwest. Since Southwest does allow you to apply NR credit to other people, some people think it’s appropriate to sell their unused NR tickets.
Again, this is the same type of issue as selling Rapid Rewards tickets and/or incentive passes. Buyer beware, this is against Southwest policy and according to their contract of carriage they are not obligated to honor the ticket.
In response to Joe Farrell–
When was the last time you flew????!!!! I fly at least once a week and I can assure you that no US airline asks you to show the credit card that was used to buy the ticket any more! And they haven’t for years. Just how would that work for all the business travel? Most companies have a central card that is used for all company-approved flights. Then the various employees have their own company card for all other expenses. And how about if you buy tickets for a friend or relative?
At least be up-to-date when you start spouting “regulations”!
Mary Cunningham, I have experienced firsthand a US airline that required showing the credit card used–United. December 2006 my 18-year-old daughter was flying home for Christmas, I had purchased her ticket with my card. United refused to let her board, as she did not have that card in her possession. Luckily (or should I say miraculously) she had enough money to use her ATM debit card to pay for a new ticket, which was the only way they’d let her fly. They did refund the money to my credit card. Don’t even like to think about that chain of events, as it still makes me livid. After spending many hours on phone calls & letters, I was told by UA that’s their policy. We no longer will fly on UA.
So before you lambast someone yourself, you might want to phrase your point in a more civil tone.
@Mary: Sorry, but for those of us true “warriors” who check in at kiosks, swiping the credit card is the fastest way to bring up our reservations. “Required”? No. But way-to-go? Absolutely. So don’t be so preachy.
@wjm: If the price seems close to the average available online (as you stated), consider this: If the price from two different sources is in the same ball park, would you buy from an “authorized dealer” or some place that “looks and sounds” as good?
I do feel badly for you, sir, but WN did the right thing as a business. If you’d had this issue when buying from their website (or from their authorized travel agent), they might have handled it differently. But it’s not realistic to expect them to police the rest of the world (internet and otherwise) and try to find every possible scam artist selling “bargain” tickets.
Remember, WN was NOT paid twice — only once. Their only remedy would be to require all tickets to be paid for — and verified — months in advance to prevent this type of scam. Realistic? Not. If yours were the only case, perhaps they’d help you out… but given that it happens frequently — THROUGH NO FAULT OF WN’s — what do you expect them to do, swallow millions in losses even though they did nothing wrong?
Folks, ANYONE who buys ANYTHING on the internet has to do it with both eyes open. (If you meet the seller in person, why not get a fingerprint or a photo!)
If there’s something good coming out of this, it’s that most people reading this thread will be a lot more wary of third-party “bargains” in the future. Let’s hope so.
I have compassion for Mr. M and I think he may be guilty of being naive…maybe even dumb….but I don’t think he should be stuck paying SW $715.00. There are many third party sellers - consolidators - who run legitmate business and the airlines depend upon them to sell empty seats. Mr M could easily have thought he was dealing with one of them.
As has been said by others, SW should be going after the scammers and perhaps even CraigsList. Is this seller still on that site selling fraudulent airline tickets? SW is going after the low hanging fruit because Mr. M is the easiest to target and threaten.
SW saw the ticket and allowed him to take his flight and now wants to be reimbursed. Perhaps if they caught their error before the flight Mr. M could have had some recourse with his seller or even CraigsList. But it’s too late for that.
SW’s postion is that they lose millions of dollars a year this way? Wow, that’s a lot of fraudulent tickets bought/sold that they let slip by.
In the end, I can see both sides of the coin, Both parites were cheated. I believe that SW is owed money but it looks like they’re asking Mr M for the full ticket price. I think the fairest option would be to look at the lowest price that SW sold seats on that flight and ask Mr. M for that amount. My guess is that it was a whole lot less $715.!
Chris,
Some comments on your original article: You wrote: “He took his flight without incident, but four months later a Southwest Airlines “collections specialist” phoned him to say the tickets were bogus and that he need to pay Southwest for them again or the airline would call a collections agency.”
No disrespect, but I find that statement inaccurate. If what transpired were true, he never paid southwest airlines for the first ticket. That statement makes it sound like Mr Mr. Marleau paid WN directly for the first ticket, which is simply not true.
Reading the case it sounds like the following happened:
- Mr.Marleau paid a 3rd party buyer CASH for a Rapids Reward ticket
- The 3rd party buyer, booked a ticket using a stolen credit card in Mr. Marleau’s name
- Mr. Marleau flew on the ticket purchased with the stolen credit card
If the above were the facts in the case, Mr. Marleau is VERY LUCKY that he did not get charged with CREDIT CARD FRAUD. It is quite possible, that he could have been arrested for using a ticket that was purchased through a stolen credit card fraud. He would then have to PROVE that he paid cash (where’s the receipt) from the actual identity theft through the court systems.
Like the previous posts, I have very little sympathy for Mr.Marleau. The following cardinal rules were violated:
- NEVER PAY CASH for an airline ticket
- NEVER PURCHASE an airline ticket from an unauthorized source
Could this have been avoided?
If indeed a RR ticket was purchased, one could verify the “class of ticket” and determine if it was a FF redeem or one purchased via CC
Mr. Marleau, if you are still reading this, you indicate that you have the name, number, address of the individual that sold you this ticket. Have you tried to contact the police? After all, you have first hand information on an identity theft case. If the person were “real” (yeah right), you may try small claims litigation to recover your loss.
Bottom line, I’m surprised that people are still buying tickets off Craigslist, etc. 10 years ago, everyone warned against purchasing tickets from another individual. Why is it that we are STILL writing about people who get burned?
Mr Marleau, pay the $715. Instead of dwelling on how you got “screwed” be thankful that the police didn’t show up at your front door with an arrest warrent claiming that you were the one that stole the credit card. If that happened, you would be spending hours of time and way more than $715 on lawyer fees trying to “prove” your innocence. Learn your lesson and don’t pay CASH for a airline ticket, ESPECIALLY from a 3rd party buyer.
Chris C
Joe F: Here’s what it appears happened (as far as I can see) vis a vis the “RR Credits/Voucher” versus the credit card fraud.
Someone posted on Craigslist the availability of a soon-expiring RR voucher for a flight. Although the voucher can’t legally be sold, Southwest allows the voucher owner to use it to purchase a ticket for anyone. So people can send money to the voucher holder, and in turn he can reserve their ticket, and it’s hard to prove the “sale”. But the voucher holder is the one who has to book the flight, since SW doesn’t issue paper vouchers any more. By phone or online, but it’s always a paperless voucher and paperless ticket.
Now, an unscrupulous person can CLAIM to have a RR voucher, but in reality have a stolen credit card number. He can sell (via ebay, craigslist, or whatever) the “voucher”, use the stolen credit card number to buy the ticket the buyer wants, and then send him the confirmation information.
When SW emails confirmation, it only puts the “payment” info on the main copy of the receipt - and it lets the buyer determine which address gets that copy. Up to 4 other people can be copied on that reservation, but their copies simply show the reservation, not how it was paid. So the scammed buyer gets an email saying he’s got a valid reservation, there’s no price on it, and he assumes it was indeed a voucher ticket.
Now, a truly paranoid person could call Southwest and possibly wheedle out some information as to what type of ticket it was, but they’re probably trained to be very careful about giving out financial info to anyone other than the purchaser. However, a question like “My partner was supposed to book this for me using his RR credits, but I think he might have misunderstood because the credits are still showing in the account - can you verify if this is a RR or a paid ticket?” might get an answer. But then you’d have to know to ask.
As for the blame question: I realize this guy was victimized, but I’m sorry, I don’t feel really bad for him. He may not have known that vouchers can’t be sold, but I think anyone with an ounce of sense *should* know.
People have to accept some level of self-accountability when participating in questionable transactions. It’s very likely that the pax in this case paid far less than the $700 ticket price (otherwise it wouldn’t have been a bargain.)
Although this will be a costly lesson for the passenger, perhaps he can turn it into a positive experience by sharing his knowledge with others and promoting fraud awareness.
@Candice:
A “legitimate” third-party seller (or consolidator) invariably has a street address AND a website AND is a registered (in their state) business. ANYONE who buys something online and not finding at least one of those three should be suspicious. Further, any law enforcement professional will tell you that if someone is willing to “meet” you at a place other than their own home or business to deliver the goods, alarms should go off.
Do you really think that WN and other retailers “let this slip by”? Go talk to any major retailer’s fraud people — or a law enforcement fraud specialist. If you’re surprised that WN loses millions of dollars to scams like this, you’ll be “astounded” when you see the losses that other airlines incur, with even larger sums at online retailers like Amazon, all due to similar scams.
This oft-used example is often used to illustrate the legal principle: If you buy a car from someone and it turns out later (even months or years later) that the car was stolen, you lose the car (or pay the owner for its original value). And you give thanks if you’re not prosecuted for receiving stolen property. It’s red-letter law and it’s that simple — sad but true.
If you know of a way WN (or any retailer) can prevent this, please post it here. I’m serious; in fact,I’m sure they’ll reward you handsomely for figuring out what they, financial institutions and law enforcement officials worldwide have been frustrated at achieving.
I agree, Candice, it’s a shame that Mr. M was scammed — but it’s not WN’s fault. It’s his. Since he technically did receive fraudulently obtained goods, he has legal liability — although it’s doubtful he’d be prosecuted. He’s already paid a hefty “fine” and I doubt he’ll ever do this again.
Folks, the internet is incredible — and mostly fun. If you’re like me, you’re ruthless (even obsessive) bargain hunters. But by taking reasonable precautions and resisting temptation when it just sounds too good to be true, you’ll be practicing “safe” buying.
I side with the airline here. Although I sypmathize with the passenger’s plight, it was his irreponsible purchase from an illegitimate source that caused the problem in the first place.
In this day and age, people should know not to buy “scalped” tickets. We had the same thing for awhile with parking lot payments..people using a stolen credit card to buy parking lot time and then trying to re-sell it on the spot.
If the airline had absorbed the loss, then it would be quietly happening again and again…however, this issue is now receiving some “buyer beware” publicity.
Southwest isn’t being much different than anyone else would be in this situation.
Once again, it is regrettable for the passenger, but it is his own stupidity that got him into the mess in the first place.
Of course the person who stole the credit card should be prosecuted, but that is a separate issue.
There has been lots of words trying to intepret and figure out what happened and why it happend and so on. There is really only one word necessary to describe what has happened here, and the word applies to the scammer, and the scamee, but NOT WN. The word is GREED. It is the word that describes how most people get scammed, their own GREED.
I feel for wjm, I empathize with him, but to expect me and my fellow travelers, who look for the best prices and use whatever “tricks” WN allows us to, to pay for his GREED (in the form of higher ticket prices if SW should eat the cost of his tickets & the $$’s of all the other GREED induced scammed ticket buyers) is unreasonable and only points out what some others here have already mentioned, that is, people need to be accountable for their own actions, everything that goes wrong isn’t someone elses fault!!
If hand a cashier a couterfeit $100, the store is required to keep the bill and report it to the police. I have to either hand the purchase back or cough up a legit $100 bill. It stinks, but I really can’t go around badmouthing the store. The store can’t be expected to conduct a full investigation, particularly if I got the bad $100 from someone selling them for $20 on CL.
How about Mr. M provide Southwest with some sort of proof of what he paid the scammer, cancelled check, paypal receipt, anything. Then maybe SW would be willing to write off just that amount and collect the rest. Then Mr. M is paying what was the legitimate fare amount, and SW gives a little leeway.
If you go to a pawnshop or a “friend” and pick up a $715 stereo for $100, only to discover that it was stolen when the police confiscate it for evidence, only an idiot would expect the police, the manufacturer or the store that originally sold the stereo to compensate you for your loss. Perhaps travel insurance would cover such a situation? No one yet has come forward with insurance coverage for people who make questionable purchases to save some bucks or people who think Craigs List is like going to the Mall for goods or services. On the website it clearly states that the listings are in no way checked for authenticity, accuracy or accountability.
SW cannot be held responsible for those who fall prey to scammers, the premise of scams being that humans love to get something for nothing or next to nothing without concern for how it came to be worth so little. Given the easy access via phone, email, online websites, etc., it wouldn’t have been too difficult to contact SW and ask some questions about this “too good to be true” ticket price. Chris, if you had spent $715 for a ticket, who would you sell it too (if the need arose) and for how much? Given that you could probably use the amount toward the purchase of another fare, would you take a significant loss on it to get some cash knowing the credit card bill was coming? NAAAAH! Mr. M is unhappy he got caught by his own greed and cleverness in attempting to circumvent the reliable means of purchasing airfares, and wants someone else to pay for his poor judgement. The whole Craigs List scenario smells fishy even without a little thought, and just gets smellier with a little reflection. Sorry Dude, no free rides.
I feel sorry for people who get ripped off. That being said, I would NEVER buy airline tickets anywhere except a travel agent or airline website. I would be skeptical from the start. Maybe this person doesn’t realize the way of the world. It’s not Southwest’s problem that this happened. I am a fan of Southwest as I fly it frequently and always buy my ticket on southwest.com without incident.
Excuse me! Why would anyone buy an airline ticket on Craigslist? Come on! How about buying the ticket from the airline!!
All of this discussion is meaningless and a waste of time.
You get what you pay for. Unfortunately, this gentleman tried to get something for next to nothing. This fiasco could have been easily prevented.
The old maxim still holds true — “If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.” If Mr. Marleau bought the ticket for $200 less than WN ’s advertised price, would he have called them up and offered to pay the difference. I think not. Caveat Emptor.
The only person dumber than the one who buys an airplane ticket from… CRAIGSLIST (can’t even say that without rolling my eyes)… is the person who defends him.
And who expects any business to “treat them with love.” Okay, maybe certain business yes… but not an airline.
I got a particular chuckle from Mr. Marleau’s response on this board…. “I am the victim.” Well guy, you kinda did that to yourself. Hope you learned something from this and don’t allow yourself to be victimized again by your own stupidity.
With love,
RG
To all the blowhards who are jumping on Mary — not everyone does the credit card kiosk thing. I usually do, and not all airlines require that the credit card you swipe even be the one you used to purchase the ticket. The credit card is basically used as identification. Since I purchase my tickets so far in advance that I don’t always remember which card I used, I simply swipe whatever card I have with me. I’ve never had a problem getting my boarding pass.
Joe Farrell: I recognize that you travel way more than I do and know more about such things than I do, but I’ve ready many of your postings, and you always come across as such a pompous, condescending donkey butt that the facts get lost in the “I’m smart and you’re not” attitude. Lighten up!
SWA does not sell left over seats to consolidators so that empty seats can be filled. SWA does not participate in consolidators like Orbiz or Expedia, which are owned by a few other major airlines. SWA has a huge and powerful legal and fraud departments that constantly scan ebay and craigs lists and issues orders to cease and desist. People just change their email address and phone number when issued the warning and try again. Rapid Reward Ticket fraud is huge. When RR Customers selling their tickets are a part of it, their memberships are revoked if caught and tickets canceled. Employees are warned if they sell their buddy passes, they face termination. Many people unfortunately buy tickets from people with stolen credit cards. If they are last minute purchases, it is very difficult to catch the passengers before travel. The credit card customer sees the charge on his bill 30 days later and then challenges the charge. Then the investigation starts and SWA seeks to recoup their money. If they let WJM get away without paying, then everyone else will want to fly for free too. WJM should go to small-claims court and try to recoup his money from the ticket-seller as well. Just go down the food-chain. SWA did not contract the Craig’s List ‘merchant’ as an authorized travel agency to sell WJM the ticket. Just buy from SOUTHWEST.com next time. Enough Enough of being the sad victim. You got taken by someone but it wasn’t SWA.
So my question is this…. did the purchaser not verify the authenticity of the purchased ticket with Southwest? With all the scams going around, one would reasonably expect to do a little legwork to insure against this. I feel for the guy but come on… Southwest has to do what what it can to avoid this. If they simply let this one go, everybody and their brother would be selling “deeply discounted tickets” on Craigslist and the carrier would go bankrupt. Considering the shape the airline industry is in currently, they certainly don’t need the help of scammers to further assist them with bankruptcy! They’re all doing failry well on their own!
You can always verify the voucher prior to purchasing, if its in person.
Online, I’d recommend that you use a reputable company like ebay.com where there are tons.
I look on http://www.travelbydeals.com/marketplace/ , vacanttravel.com, travel.ebay.com.
It’s always recommended to buy such items from reliable sources. A search for airline vouchers would yield established sites like http://www.ebay.com and http://www.vacanttravel.com.
For me, I wouldn’t dare to buy directly from strangers in craigslist. If buying discounted tickets gives you insomnia, I’d suggest you that you might be better off buying normal tickets from airline.