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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;At times it feels as though the airline industry has been pushed over a cliff&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/</link>
	<description>Consumer advocate Christopher Elliott&#039;s site.</description>
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		<title>By: Airline compare : How To Get Cheap Airline Seats &#124; Airline Compare</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28278</link>
		<dc:creator>Airline compare : How To Get Cheap Airline Seats &#124; Airline Compare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 02:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] “At times it feels as though the airline industry has been pushed &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] “At times it feels as though the airline industry has been pushed &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sjclynn</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28121</link>
		<dc:creator>sjclynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28121</guid>
		<description>@Les
Prior to deregulation, the CAB controlled routes and fares. It was not easy to add, or drop service, and the fare between two points was the same. Airlines competed for advantage in all manner but price. Newer, faster equipment, better meal service, more frequent schedule would be examples. I remember getting full meal service on just about every flight, even the 1 hour between Minneapolis and Chicago.

Both Texas and California had thriving in state carriers. PSA and Air Cal carried major traffic between LA and the bay area. When they were swallowed up by AA and US in  the 80&#039;s that good service went away.

Once into the new era of deregulation, price became the primary differentiator. New carriers entered the market with the expressed purpose of offering cheaper travel. People Express flew 747s from Oakland to Newark competing with UA and AA that flew from the more prefered SFO and JFK. Airlines have come and gone.  

At some point, the industry decided to see who could provide the worst service at the cheapest price. We are still seeking the bottom on that exercise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Les<br />
Prior to deregulation, the CAB controlled routes and fares. It was not easy to add, or drop service, and the fare between two points was the same. Airlines competed for advantage in all manner but price. Newer, faster equipment, better meal service, more frequent schedule would be examples. I remember getting full meal service on just about every flight, even the 1 hour between Minneapolis and Chicago.</p>
<p>Both Texas and California had thriving in state carriers. PSA and Air Cal carried major traffic between LA and the bay area. When they were swallowed up by AA and US in  the 80&#8242;s that good service went away.</p>
<p>Once into the new era of deregulation, price became the primary differentiator. New carriers entered the market with the expressed purpose of offering cheaper travel. People Express flew 747s from Oakland to Newark competing with UA and AA that flew from the more prefered SFO and JFK. Airlines have come and gone.  </p>
<p>At some point, the industry decided to see who could provide the worst service at the cheapest price. We are still seeking the bottom on that exercise.</p>
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		<title>By: Paris to New York in 1953: &#8220;This says it all&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28112</link>
		<dc:creator>Paris to New York in 1953: &#8220;This says it all&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 18:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28112</guid>
		<description>[...] dug this out after reading Bob Herbst&#8217;s piece yesterday,&#8221; says reader and former airline employee Jerry Castellano. &#8220;This says it [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] dug this out after reading Bob Herbst&#8217;s piece yesterday,&#8221; says reader and former airline employee Jerry Castellano. &#8220;This says it [...]</p>
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		<title>By: LeeAnne</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28063</link>
		<dc:creator>LeeAnne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 22:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28063</guid>
		<description>Carver, I have NEVER seen a $30 upgrade to First Class!  I would hop on that faster than you could say &quot;free champagne.&quot;  How come I&#039;ve never seen an upgrade like that?  On all of the flights I&#039;ve taken of late, upgrades to even business class were literally in the thousands of dollars.  Of course, I tend to fly international more than domestic, but still...I would happily pay even an extra few HUNDRED to be able to avoid the indignities of coach

I did once get an offer at the airport to upgrade to Business Class on a flight from Bali to Hong Kong for only $300...and I pounced on it.  That was one of the more pleasant 4-hour I ever spent on a plane.  But for the most part, this leisure traveler is stuck in the cheap seats.  When the airfare is more expensive than the rest of the vacation, I just can&#039;t justify that.  And not being a business traveler, I don&#039;t fly often enough to rack up the frequent flyer miles to get one of those free upgrades.

As far as I&#039;m concerned, air fares are one of the most bizarre and unexplainable mysteries on this planet...more so than what killed the dinosaurs, or who built the pyramids!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carver, I have NEVER seen a $30 upgrade to First Class!  I would hop on that faster than you could say &#8220;free champagne.&#8221;  How come I&#8217;ve never seen an upgrade like that?  On all of the flights I&#8217;ve taken of late, upgrades to even business class were literally in the thousands of dollars.  Of course, I tend to fly international more than domestic, but still&#8230;I would happily pay even an extra few HUNDRED to be able to avoid the indignities of coach</p>
<p>I did once get an offer at the airport to upgrade to Business Class on a flight from Bali to Hong Kong for only $300&#8230;and I pounced on it.  That was one of the more pleasant 4-hour I ever spent on a plane.  But for the most part, this leisure traveler is stuck in the cheap seats.  When the airfare is more expensive than the rest of the vacation, I just can&#8217;t justify that.  And not being a business traveler, I don&#8217;t fly often enough to rack up the frequent flyer miles to get one of those free upgrades.</p>
<p>As far as I&#8217;m concerned, air fares are one of the most bizarre and unexplainable mysteries on this planet&#8230;more so than what killed the dinosaurs, or who built the pyramids!</p>
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		<title>By: Carver</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28048</link>
		<dc:creator>Carver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 20:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28048</guid>
		<description>@Les

This is just a guess, but since airline regularion were federal not state, it seems unlikely that state lines were an issue. 

@Leanne, Bill

I agree.  I wish that airlines were more like car rental fleets.  Any given major car rental company has dozens of different classes of cars.  Hertz LAX has 37 different classes of cars. One for each budget and desire.

Unfortunately, an airline doesn&#039;t have such flexibility.  Adding more legroom or seat width generally means removing seats, seats which could be producing revenue.

The closest thing I&#039;ve seen is cheap upgrades.  American Airlines lets you upgrade to first class for $30 per 500 miles on a space available basis.  On the business routes the upgrades are all taken, but lately, on the leisure routes, I&#039;ve seen the coach class filled, but first class half empty. That suggests that leisure travelers aren&#039;t willing to pay even $30 for the extra comfort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Les</p>
<p>This is just a guess, but since airline regularion were federal not state, it seems unlikely that state lines were an issue. </p>
<p>@Leanne, Bill</p>
<p>I agree.  I wish that airlines were more like car rental fleets.  Any given major car rental company has dozens of different classes of cars.  Hertz LAX has 37 different classes of cars. One for each budget and desire.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, an airline doesn&#8217;t have such flexibility.  Adding more legroom or seat width generally means removing seats, seats which could be producing revenue.</p>
<p>The closest thing I&#8217;ve seen is cheap upgrades.  American Airlines lets you upgrade to first class for $30 per 500 miles on a space available basis.  On the business routes the upgrades are all taken, but lately, on the leisure routes, I&#8217;ve seen the coach class filled, but first class half empty. That suggests that leisure travelers aren&#8217;t willing to pay even $30 for the extra comfort.</p>
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		<title>By: Les</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28039</link>
		<dc:creator>Les</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 18:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28039</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s my understanding that deregulation came about through industry lobbying efforts from the major carriers who wanted to compete with then-intrastate Southwest. SW flew only within Texas, a profitable market not subject to Fed regulation. Since the other carriers crossed state lines they were subject to regulation even on legs entirely within Texas. Deregulation was sought to remove this imbalance ---- or so I&#039;ve heard. I&#039;d like to hear other responses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s my understanding that deregulation came about through industry lobbying efforts from the major carriers who wanted to compete with then-intrastate Southwest. SW flew only within Texas, a profitable market not subject to Fed regulation. Since the other carriers crossed state lines they were subject to regulation even on legs entirely within Texas. Deregulation was sought to remove this imbalance &#8212;- or so I&#8217;ve heard. I&#8217;d like to hear other responses.</p>
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		<title>By: LeeAnne</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28030</link>
		<dc:creator>LeeAnne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28030</guid>
		<description>@Bill - I&#039;m not sure I agree with your stance that the airlines should just increase the fares.  While I understand what you are getting at, what that does is effectively remove air travel from with the reach of a large chunk of the population.  Former bus travelers need to fly too, ya know.

But I get your point that you, personally, would be willing to pay extra for improvements in the experience.

What would be nice to see would be some pricing that makes actual SENSE...pricing based on the actual product delivered.  Different airlines that offer different levels of service...higher costs for more legroom, better service, higher-quality amenities, etc.  And I don&#039;t mean higher as in &quot;business-class-price&quot; higher...I mean something the average non-corporate, non-expense-account traveler might actually be willing to pay out of their own pocket.  I would certainly pay more for a better experience...but not in the THOUSANDS more, which is what I have to pay now to get out of economy class.  I&#039;m not a corporate traveler - I&#039;m a pleasure-traveler - and I&#039;m just not in those lofty income levels that can justify that kind of out-of-pocket expense for a bit more comfort for a few hours.

I my utopian travel world, price-concious travelers could continue to choose the less-comfortable options, and pay less money.  Travelers willing to fork over a bit more for comfort and service could do so.  And wealthy/corporate travelers could continue to travel in luxury.  And everyone would pay according to the product delivered.

Yeah, I know...it&#039;s a nice, utopian thought. Now back to the REAL world...;-)  

In any case, fascinating article, Christopher.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bill &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure I agree with your stance that the airlines should just increase the fares.  While I understand what you are getting at, what that does is effectively remove air travel from with the reach of a large chunk of the population.  Former bus travelers need to fly too, ya know.</p>
<p>But I get your point that you, personally, would be willing to pay extra for improvements in the experience.</p>
<p>What would be nice to see would be some pricing that makes actual SENSE&#8230;pricing based on the actual product delivered.  Different airlines that offer different levels of service&#8230;higher costs for more legroom, better service, higher-quality amenities, etc.  And I don&#8217;t mean higher as in &#8220;business-class-price&#8221; higher&#8230;I mean something the average non-corporate, non-expense-account traveler might actually be willing to pay out of their own pocket.  I would certainly pay more for a better experience&#8230;but not in the THOUSANDS more, which is what I have to pay now to get out of economy class.  I&#8217;m not a corporate traveler &#8211; I&#8217;m a pleasure-traveler &#8211; and I&#8217;m just not in those lofty income levels that can justify that kind of out-of-pocket expense for a bit more comfort for a few hours.</p>
<p>I my utopian travel world, price-concious travelers could continue to choose the less-comfortable options, and pay less money.  Travelers willing to fork over a bit more for comfort and service could do so.  And wealthy/corporate travelers could continue to travel in luxury.  And everyone would pay according to the product delivered.</p>
<p>Yeah, I know&#8230;it&#8217;s a nice, utopian thought. Now back to the REAL world&#8230;;-)  </p>
<p>In any case, fascinating article, Christopher.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Merlin</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28026</link>
		<dc:creator>Merlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28026</guid>
		<description>Oh come on, barbie.  You didn&#039;t even understand it.

Yet another fact-filled, thought-provoking post from the infamous barbie.  ::rolling eyes::</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh come on, barbie.  You didn&#8217;t even understand it.</p>
<p>Yet another fact-filled, thought-provoking post from the infamous barbie.  ::rolling eyes::</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28024</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28024</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t speak for everyone, but I know in &quot;my world&quot;, limited as it may be, there is enough leeway for increasing the fare for more benefit - just not to the extent that the business class charges.  I&#039;m talking in the range of 50% more.  For that premium, if one gains a little more comfort and a little more productivity at the other end, it is worth it in &quot;my world&quot;.
I see some limited success with that in the last minute upgrades.  I realize places that do a lot of flying would not really be amenable to the increases.  My flying is in the range of 25-35000 right at the moment.  Thank you for the responses to my original comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t speak for everyone, but I know in &#8220;my world&#8221;, limited as it may be, there is enough leeway for increasing the fare for more benefit &#8211; just not to the extent that the business class charges.  I&#8217;m talking in the range of 50% more.  For that premium, if one gains a little more comfort and a little more productivity at the other end, it is worth it in &#8220;my world&#8221;.<br />
I see some limited success with that in the last minute upgrades.  I realize places that do a lot of flying would not really be amenable to the increases.  My flying is in the range of 25-35000 right at the moment.  Thank you for the responses to my original comments.</p>
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		<title>By: barbie45</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28010</link>
		<dc:creator>barbie45</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 14:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28010</guid>
		<description>Bill , Those are my sentiments also.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill , Those are my sentiments also.</p>
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		<title>By: Carver</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28009</link>
		<dc:creator>Carver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 14:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28009</guid>
		<description>@Bill

You correctly state that airlines seems to focus on 2 markets only, the infrequent traveler to bases purchases on dollars only and the 10k per internation trip.

Unfortunately, experience has taught the airlines that the middle segment doesn&#039;t value paying a premium for a better product.  For example, American Airllnes More Room Throught Coach was shuttled after a few years because they were losing out to Southworse</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bill</p>
<p>You correctly state that airlines seems to focus on 2 markets only, the infrequent traveler to bases purchases on dollars only and the 10k per internation trip.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, experience has taught the airlines that the middle segment doesn&#8217;t value paying a premium for a better product.  For example, American Airllnes More Room Throught Coach was shuttled after a few years because they were losing out to Southworse</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/first-person/at-times-it-feels-as-though-the-airline-industry-has-been-pushed-over-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-28005</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/?p=9682#comment-28005</guid>
		<description>Interesting article, thank you for sharing the information.
A couple of comments:  &quot;To be honest, I don’t see how you can effectively understand the airline industry unless you have worked in it. Operating large jet aircraft, carrying hundreds of passengers around the world is considerably more complex than anyone outside of the industry can understand.&quot;

Well, yes, it is very complex and definitely a lot more than meets the eye, but no, it is not impossible for an &quot;outsider&quot; to understand.  There are lots of things in this world that are more complex than they seem, and running an airline is just one of them.  The most vocal passengers are possibly those who used to travel via Greyhound, but trust me, there are people out there who understand the complexities, and are grateful when that plane lands safely, particularly when there is a big crosswind in a busy airport.  We appreciate the work that all of the thousands of airline employees do.

There are a lot of people out there who would prefer to pay a little more in return for a stable industry - but by targeting the bus passengers at one end, and the ones who can pay over $10,000 to cross the Atlantic and back in executive class, the airlines are missing a huge segment who would pay a premium for a little extra legroom.

Many industries focus on price too much and it is amazing how many people gripe about $20 here and $50 there.  But it is the advertising that makes them think that way.  I paid $70 for UAL to carry baggage from LAS to SFO - and I know full well those fees mean a heck of a lot more to United than they do to me because of the economies of scale.

Thanks for the great article - the information was much appreciated and not at all surprising.  Something needs to change for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article, thank you for sharing the information.<br />
A couple of comments:  &#8220;To be honest, I don’t see how you can effectively understand the airline industry unless you have worked in it. Operating large jet aircraft, carrying hundreds of passengers around the world is considerably more complex than anyone outside of the industry can understand.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, yes, it is very complex and definitely a lot more than meets the eye, but no, it is not impossible for an &#8220;outsider&#8221; to understand.  There are lots of things in this world that are more complex than they seem, and running an airline is just one of them.  The most vocal passengers are possibly those who used to travel via Greyhound, but trust me, there are people out there who understand the complexities, and are grateful when that plane lands safely, particularly when there is a big crosswind in a busy airport.  We appreciate the work that all of the thousands of airline employees do.</p>
<p>There are a lot of people out there who would prefer to pay a little more in return for a stable industry &#8211; but by targeting the bus passengers at one end, and the ones who can pay over $10,000 to cross the Atlantic and back in executive class, the airlines are missing a huge segment who would pay a premium for a little extra legroom.</p>
<p>Many industries focus on price too much and it is amazing how many people gripe about $20 here and $50 there.  But it is the advertising that makes them think that way.  I paid $70 for UAL to carry baggage from LAS to SFO &#8211; and I know full well those fees mean a heck of a lot more to United than they do to me because of the economies of scale.</p>
<p>Thanks for the great article &#8211; the information was much appreciated and not at all surprising.  Something needs to change for sure.</p>
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