Comments on: Why do planes fly with empty seats in business class? http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/ The travel troubleshooter. Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:17:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Will H http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/comment-page-1/#comment-4359 Will H Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:35:55 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/#comment-4359 I suspect catering "reason" is bogus. Had ATL to MAD flite on DL spring '06. Mech flaw with orig plane, not fixable same day, finally DL changed to different equipment with 7 instead fo 6 rows in front. Wife & I given upgrades (oh, lucky me) and despite the increased # of front cabin seats, we got the same meals as others in front. If this is feasible on such short, unplanned notice, a claim that the seat will not be filled for reasons of catering seems flatulent/fatuous/fraudulent/fictitious/filibustering/fantasy/foolish/flippant and predictable, considering the source. I suspect catering “reason” is bogus. Had ATL to MAD flite on DL spring ‘06. Mech flaw with orig plane, not fixable same day, finally DL changed to different equipment with 7 instead fo 6 rows in front. Wife & I given upgrades (oh, lucky me) and despite the increased # of front cabin seats, we got the same meals as others in front. If this is feasible on such short, unplanned notice, a claim that the seat will not be filled for reasons of catering seems flatulent/fatuous/fraudulent/fictitious/filibustering/fantasy/foolish/flippant and predictable, considering the source.

]]> By: Cityjane http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/comment-page-1/#comment-4136 Cityjane Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:36:25 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/#comment-4136 As a follow-up, I thought you might be interested in this article, which specifically addresses some of the issues mentioned here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/06/AR2007060602529.html And Daryl is correct regarding the 24hr policy, particularly with regard to international and long haul plans. On Continental, if you don't clear the upgrade waitlist before an international flight, forget it...there is virtually no chance of getting into Business class. As a follow-up, I thought you might be interested in this article, which specifically addresses some of the issues mentioned here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/06/AR2007060602529.html

And Daryl is correct regarding the 24hr policy, particularly with regard to international and long haul plans. On Continental, if you don’t clear the upgrade waitlist before an international flight, forget it…there is virtually no chance of getting into Business class.

]]> By: Brooks Hurd http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/comment-page-1/#comment-4090 Brooks Hurd Tue, 02 Oct 2007 23:02:41 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/#comment-4090 I've been a frequent flyer for long enough to remember when the US airlines used to act as if their frequent travelers were important to their bottom line. The effect on the bottom line of each airlline's elite frequent flyers has not changed, however the attitude of US carriers (and from the comments above, EU carriers as well) certainly has changed. When I was PM/MM on DL in the mid 90s, I was usually upgraded. I received coupons based on miles flown. PM meant complimentary Crown Room membership and upgrades based on availibility. Then came the 24 hour rule which made upgrades onorous. The rule was however only a symptom of a changing attitude by US carriers toward their frequent flyers. Over the dozen years that I have been MM on DL, I have experienced a seachange in DL's attitude. DL formerly treated their Elite frequent travelers as the important customers that we are, but now DL in large part seems to consider us as pests to be undured by busy airline staff. The comments above reinforce the point that US carriers by and large DO NOT CARE about their elite frequent flyers. The fact that non-revs get upgraded ahead of us pretty much tells you where these airlines' priorities are directed. Most of my flying is international, so I have a choice in carriers. If most of the US carriers act as if they do not care about my business, that's fine with me. They lost my business several years ago because of their attitudes toward frequent flyers. I will fly only airlines where my miles mean upgrades and airport lounges. GM/MM on DL, gold/MM on AA. This year I've been elite on two East Asian carriers. I’ve been a frequent flyer for long enough to remember when the US airlines used to act as if their frequent travelers were important to their bottom line. The effect on the bottom line of each airlline’s elite frequent flyers has not changed, however the attitude of US carriers (and from the comments above, EU carriers as well) certainly has changed.

When I was PM/MM on DL in the mid 90s, I was usually upgraded. I received coupons based on miles flown. PM meant complimentary Crown Room membership and upgrades based on availibility. Then came the 24 hour rule which made upgrades onorous. The rule was however only a symptom of a changing attitude by US carriers toward their frequent flyers. Over the dozen years that I have been MM on DL, I have experienced a seachange in DL’s attitude. DL formerly treated their Elite frequent travelers as the important customers that we are, but now DL in large part seems to consider us as pests to be undured by busy airline staff.

The comments above reinforce the point that US carriers by and large DO NOT CARE about their elite frequent flyers. The fact that non-revs get upgraded ahead of us pretty much tells you where these airlines’ priorities are directed.

Most of my flying is international, so I have a choice in carriers. If most of the US carriers act as if they do not care about my business, that’s fine with me. They lost my business several years ago because of their attitudes toward frequent flyers. I will fly only airlines where my miles mean upgrades and airport lounges.

GM/MM on DL, gold/MM on AA. This year I’ve been elite on two East Asian carriers.

]]> By: Ed Ferrell http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/comment-page-1/#comment-4061 Ed Ferrell Tue, 02 Oct 2007 16:34:23 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/#comment-4061 I think, over the past 15 years, I've been in each of the situations mentioned. Have been a UA Premier Exec or 100K for 10 of those. I've been moved from coach to biz after the doors closed (THANK YOU, UA), bumped for operational reasons when coach was oversold (No complaints from me), been told about "meals," and watched the empty biz class seats stay empty. I resent the idea that my being bumped up devalues the class. Ouch! I'm just a few miles short of a million with UA alone and think I know how to "behave" in an upgraded world. But, really, they've won. I never even bother asking for an comped upgrades anymore. Even on my birthday. But, that said, I've been in biz twice in the last 6 flights ... all from IAD to LHR, so I'll be quiet now. I think, over the past 15 years, I’ve been in each of the situations mentioned. Have been a UA Premier Exec or 100K for 10 of those. I’ve been moved from coach to biz after the doors closed (THANK YOU, UA), bumped for operational reasons when coach was oversold (No complaints from me), been told about “meals,” and watched the empty biz class seats stay empty. I resent the idea that my being bumped up devalues the class. Ouch! I’m just a few miles short of a million with UA alone and think I know how to “behave” in an upgraded world.

But, really, they’ve won. I never even bother asking for an comped upgrades anymore. Even on my birthday. But, that said, I’ve been in biz twice in the last 6 flights … all from IAD to LHR, so I’ll be quiet now.

]]> By: Darryl http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/comment-page-1/#comment-4052 Darryl Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:10:43 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/#comment-4052 In Continental's case, flying with empty business seats is a result of a deliberate policy - they will not clear anyone in the last 24 hours because people were abusing refundable ticket policies. Specifically, people would book a business class reservation that they had no intention of actually flying (possibly in someone else's name), and then change it or refund it at the last minute, creating an empty seat for them to be upgraded into. This would prevent Continental from being able to sell the seat, and there really is no good way to tell that a particular reservation is bogus - after all, perhaps my boss was really going to fly with me on that trip (him in business, and me in economy), and he had to back out. Personally, I would much prefer that they changes the other side of the problem - being able to cancel a reservation without any consequences (if it had to be paid in full, and they kept the money for 6 weeks, people might stop doing that), but I understand their reasons, even if I really dislike the situation. In Continental’s case, flying with empty business seats is a result of a deliberate policy – they will not clear anyone in the last 24 hours because people were abusing refundable ticket policies. Specifically, people would book a business class reservation that they had no intention of actually flying (possibly in someone else’s name), and then change it or refund it at the last minute, creating an empty seat for them to be upgraded into. This would prevent Continental from being able to sell the seat, and there really is no good way to tell that a particular reservation is bogus – after all, perhaps my boss was really going to fly with me on that trip (him in business, and me in economy), and he had to back out.
Personally, I would much prefer that they changes the other side of the problem – being able to cancel a reservation without any consequences (if it had to be paid in full, and they kept the money for 6 weeks, people might stop doing that), but I understand their reasons, even if I really dislike the situation.

]]> By: Chuck http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/comment-page-1/#comment-4047 Chuck Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:50:48 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/#comment-4047 I recently flew DL ATL-TLV on an upgradable coach ticket, paying a $975 premium to do so. I am lifetime Gold, currently Platinum and, even though the gate supervisor admitted there were 6 unsold seats up front, they would not honor the upgrade because of the 24 hour rule. I asked why they didn't clear it the previous day when there were still 14 unsold seats. No good answer, but I did visit the cabin and found out that many of the passengers were on "buddy" passes. The only advice I received was to never book in that higher fare unless the upgrade could be confirmed on the spot. I recently flew DL ATL-TLV on an upgradable coach ticket, paying a $975 premium to do so. I am lifetime Gold, currently Platinum and, even though the gate supervisor admitted there were 6 unsold seats up front, they would not honor the upgrade because of the 24 hour rule. I asked why they didn’t clear it the previous day when there were still 14 unsold seats. No good answer, but I did visit the cabin and found out that many of the passengers were on “buddy” passes. The only advice I received was to never book in that higher fare unless the upgrade could be confirmed on the spot.

]]> By: Ndimitru http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/comment-page-1/#comment-4044 Ndimitru Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:31:24 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/#comment-4044 I can provide first hand one reason that United flies with empty seats in Business class....because the gate personnel take passengers off the upgrade list. Incompetent? Jerks? Who knows. But I am surprised that United does NOT give their elite fliers complimentatry upgrades, this would go a LOooooooong way to upgrade their image. I can provide first hand one reason that United flies with empty seats in Business class….because the gate personnel take passengers off the upgrade list. Incompetent? Jerks? Who knows. But I am surprised that United does NOT give their elite fliers complimentatry upgrades, this would go a LOooooooong way to upgrade their image.

]]> By: Ben http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/comment-page-1/#comment-3954 Ben Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:00:45 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/#comment-3954 Actually, the answer has much less to do with deficiencies in technology, poor customer service, lack of work ethic, lack of food for new passengers, etc.....and much more to do with the idea of maintaining the value of their elite product. When a company is charging $10k for an international business/first seat (not uncommon), allowing too many passengers to upgrade for "free" depresses the value. They need to maintain the perception of exclusivity to continue to charge high fees (with excellent margins). Of course, the airlines don't like to admit this b/c it doesn't go over too well with their frequent fliers. Actually, the answer has much less to do with deficiencies in technology, poor customer service, lack of work ethic, lack of food for new passengers, etc…..and much more to do with the idea of maintaining the value of their elite product. When a company is charging $10k for an international business/first seat (not uncommon), allowing too many passengers to upgrade for “free” depresses the value. They need to maintain the perception of exclusivity to continue to charge high fees (with excellent margins). Of course, the airlines don’t like to admit this b/c it doesn’t go over too well with their frequent fliers.

]]> By: TomCayman http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/comment-page-1/#comment-3912 TomCayman Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:13:56 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/#comment-3912 First of all, there is a big distinction between US domestic business class and International business class.... both in service and revenue management. Since 9/11 (following which many seats were empty for quite some time) American elite frequent flyers have grown accustomed to effectively free upgrades, from stickers to e-upgrades to YUP fares to even automatic upgrades for top frequent fliers. Important to note though that this has never happened on international (transatlantic/pacific) business class, nor is there this culture among airlines and their frequent fliers in Europe. I'm an AA frequent flier, and sure it has got much more difficult to use mileage upgrades on TATL routes in recent years, but they do still often clear inside 24 hours, and yes sometimes at the counter on check in within a couple of hours of the flight (although different airlines vary)... but they could still do better on this, an empty seat is an empty seat. As to the old chestnut about food quantities, the dinosaurs of the old airlines should have worked out by now that we know they don't have to commit seat numbers to their caterers until 3 hours or less from departure, so that eliminates much of that excuse... but why don't they just fully cater all flights and sell gate upgrades or even on board upgrades (BA does, for example).... why not ? well, because I guess they figure that people would just wait to upgrade and not pay for that business class ticket. Hmm.. they can carry on with "old think" and watch MaxJet, EOS etc keep expanding and nibbling away at their profitable J/F seats. First of all, there is a big distinction between US domestic business class and International business class…. both in service and revenue management.

Since 9/11 (following which many seats were empty for quite some time) American elite frequent flyers have grown accustomed to effectively free upgrades, from stickers to e-upgrades to YUP fares to even automatic upgrades for top frequent fliers.

Important to note though that this has never happened on international (transatlantic/pacific) business class, nor is there this culture among airlines and their frequent fliers in Europe.

I’m an AA frequent flier, and sure it has got much more difficult to use mileage upgrades on TATL routes in recent years, but they do still often clear inside 24 hours, and yes sometimes at the counter on check in within a couple of hours of the flight (although different airlines vary)… but they could still do better on this, an empty seat is an empty seat.

As to the old chestnut about food quantities, the dinosaurs of the old airlines should have worked out by now that we know they don’t have to commit seat numbers to their caterers until 3 hours or less from departure, so that eliminates much of that excuse… but why don’t they just fully cater all flights and sell gate upgrades or even on board upgrades (BA does, for example)…. why not ? well, because I guess they figure that people would just wait to upgrade and not pay for that business class ticket.

Hmm.. they can carry on with “old think” and watch MaxJet, EOS etc keep expanding and nibbling away at their profitable J/F seats.

]]> By: Mike http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/comment-page-1/#comment-3911 Mike Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:57:46 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/why-do-planes-fly-with-empty-seats-in-business-class/#comment-3911 Twice recently when flying domestically on American Airlines, I was waitlisting for an upgrade. I was told that first or business had checked in full and I should take my original seat. Closer to departure, the agent came on board and brought me an upgraded seat assignment. I *really* appreciated that effort to clear the waitlist when someone did not show up. Twice recently when flying domestically on American Airlines, I was waitlisting for an upgrade. I was told that first or business had checked in full and I should take my original seat. Closer to departure, the agent came on board and brought me an upgraded seat assignment. I *really* appreciated that effort to clear the waitlist when someone did not show up.

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