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	<title>Comments on: Help! I&#8217;m stuck in London&#8217;s congestion pricing trap</title>
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	<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/</link>
	<description>The travel troubleshooter.</description>
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		<title>By: Chris J</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-8549</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/#comment-8549</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately for Joe F. and Seth, above, British diplomats do pay their parking tickets, at least in New York City: see http://www.usc.edu/schools/business/FBE/seminars/papers/AE_4-28-06_FISMAN-parking.pdf at page 22.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately for Joe F. and Seth, above, British diplomats do pay their parking tickets, at least in New York City: see <a href="http://www.usc.edu/schools/business/FBE/seminars/papers/AE_4-28-06_FISMAN-parking.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.usc.edu/schools/business/FBE/seminars/papers/AE_4-28-06_FISMAN-parking.pdf</a> at page 22.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim J</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-8494</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 06:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/#comment-8494</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand why anyone would want to bring a car into Central London. The streets are narrow. Traffic is always very heavy. Parking is difficult, if not impossible, to find. Also, most Americans have difficulty getting used to driving on the &quot;wrong&quot; side of the road. 
When I plan a London trip, I purchase a subway/bus pass online before I leave. The cost for a pass is higher than it would be for a similar pass in most US cities, but the price is still reasonable compared to the cost of renting a car, paying for parking, and paying congestion fees. The Piccadilly Line of the London Underground serves Heathrow Airport and I use my pass to get from the airport to the city. The ride from Heathrow to the center of London takes about 40 minutes. The trains are clean and comfortable. Of course, you can expect fully loaded trains during rush hours. 
The bus and subway network can take you almost everywhere you will want to go in the greater London area. For me, renting a car in London is not an option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand why anyone would want to bring a car into Central London. The streets are narrow. Traffic is always very heavy. Parking is difficult, if not impossible, to find. Also, most Americans have difficulty getting used to driving on the &#8220;wrong&#8221; side of the road.<br />
When I plan a London trip, I purchase a subway/bus pass online before I leave. The cost for a pass is higher than it would be for a similar pass in most US cities, but the price is still reasonable compared to the cost of renting a car, paying for parking, and paying congestion fees. The Piccadilly Line of the London Underground serves Heathrow Airport and I use my pass to get from the airport to the city. The ride from Heathrow to the center of London takes about 40 minutes. The trains are clean and comfortable. Of course, you can expect fully loaded trains during rush hours.<br />
The bus and subway network can take you almost everywhere you will want to go in the greater London area. For me, renting a car in London is not an option.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-8456</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 09:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/#comment-8456</guid>
		<description>Any fee charged by a government is a tax. A cigarette tax is still a tax even though they didn&#039;t force you to buy the pack. 

Brit diplomats refuse to pay any parking ticket or fee here in the US and routinely double park, park in red zones etc... They have no respect for us and let&#039;s be honest, we have no respect for you or your new mayor and your &quot;surveillance culture.&quot;

On the subject of this, why not have a little hospitality for foreigners that come to your country and pay your VAT tax to fund your socialism? We treat Brits like visiting royalty, you guys treat us like scumbags for visitng your rain soaked little empire. Asking a guy that&#039;s shown up for a day on business to figure out your mass transit system (knowing we don&#039;t really have that in the US) is a total joke. In the US the car rental company would&#039;ve charged him the toll, he was simply confused. It&#039;s not unreasonable to think that they could hand him a piece of paper with the URL and/or paid it and charged through the credit card.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any fee charged by a government is a tax. A cigarette tax is still a tax even though they didn&#8217;t force you to buy the pack. </p>
<p>Brit diplomats refuse to pay any parking ticket or fee here in the US and routinely double park, park in red zones etc&#8230; They have no respect for us and let&#8217;s be honest, we have no respect for you or your new mayor and your &#8220;surveillance culture.&#8221;</p>
<p>On the subject of this, why not have a little hospitality for foreigners that come to your country and pay your VAT tax to fund your socialism? We treat Brits like visiting royalty, you guys treat us like scumbags for visitng your rain soaked little empire. Asking a guy that&#8217;s shown up for a day on business to figure out your mass transit system (knowing we don&#8217;t really have that in the US) is a total joke. In the US the car rental company would&#8217;ve charged him the toll, he was simply confused. It&#8217;s not unreasonable to think that they could hand him a piece of paper with the URL and/or paid it and charged through the credit card.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe F.</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-8382</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/#comment-8382</guid>
		<description>I dunno JCH, but as soon as Britain&#039;s diplomatic staff start paying their parking tickets and moving violation fines, then maybe America will change its mind on the congestion charge.  I guess that just puts us on Britain&#039;s level, huh?  

My goodness, the Embassy is right in the City, they pay the congestion charge leaving the driveway.  One would think that with all the costs and fees and surcharges and taxes associated with living in London, if you lived in the Congestion zone you&#039;d get a break.   

As for Portia, she&#039;s right - if you rent a car in London you need to understand how the charge works and make sure you pay it, even if you are only &#039;passing through.&#039;    A toll is generally a fee charged to use a specific road or bridge, not enter a huge sprawling city.  The government uses its police and taxing power to collect the fee if you do not pay it - its a tax to enter the city.  A toll is simply a nice way to call something a tax . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dunno JCH, but as soon as Britain&#8217;s diplomatic staff start paying their parking tickets and moving violation fines, then maybe America will change its mind on the congestion charge.  I guess that just puts us on Britain&#8217;s level, huh?  </p>
<p>My goodness, the Embassy is right in the City, they pay the congestion charge leaving the driveway.  One would think that with all the costs and fees and surcharges and taxes associated with living in London, if you lived in the Congestion zone you&#8217;d get a break.   </p>
<p>As for Portia, she&#8217;s right &#8211; if you rent a car in London you need to understand how the charge works and make sure you pay it, even if you are only &#8216;passing through.&#8217;    A toll is generally a fee charged to use a specific road or bridge, not enter a huge sprawling city.  The government uses its police and taxing power to collect the fee if you do not pay it &#8211; its a tax to enter the city.  A toll is simply a nice way to call something a tax . . .</p>
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		<title>By: JCH</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-8379</link>
		<dc:creator>JCH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/#comment-8379</guid>
		<description>There is a clear distinction between a tax and a toll.

I can&#039;t avoid it if my tax dollars or pounds are used to build a toll road.

I can avoid a toll by declining to use the facility in question. The London congestion charge is a toll.

Many people who disagree with Mayor Ken Livingstone on other matters think he got it exactly right when he likened the current US ambassador to a &quot;chiselling little crook&quot;.

P.S. I am aware that some foreign diplomatic staff in Washington and New York have long abused their diplomatic status to ignore traffic and parking laws. Should the US really be seen to be on their level as a matter of official policy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a clear distinction between a tax and a toll.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t avoid it if my tax dollars or pounds are used to build a toll road.</p>
<p>I can avoid a toll by declining to use the facility in question. The London congestion charge is a toll.</p>
<p>Many people who disagree with Mayor Ken Livingstone on other matters think he got it exactly right when he likened the current US ambassador to a &#8220;chiselling little crook&#8221;.</p>
<p>P.S. I am aware that some foreign diplomatic staff in Washington and New York have long abused their diplomatic status to ignore traffic and parking laws. Should the US really be seen to be on their level as a matter of official policy?</p>
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		<title>By: Portia Eliot</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-8378</link>
		<dc:creator>Portia Eliot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:39:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/#comment-8378</guid>
		<description>Hi - I don&#039;t often comment on blogs, but this is a really spurious complaint. If you spend more than 1 hour (being generous here) in Central London you will see at least one convenience store or newsagent offering the possibility of paying the congestion charge. You can also pay by phone, pay online,  or even at a kiosk in some car parks (new one for me). The penalty for paying the day after use is 2GBP, and thereafter 100GBP, so you have at least 24 hours to pay the charge before the stiff penalties. And someone savvy enough to complain to Chris can type &quot;congestion charge&quot; in google.com, at a computer at their hotel or the nearest internet cafe, and find all the details. So in this case I think it is a case of personal irresponsibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi &#8211; I don&#8217;t often comment on blogs, but this is a really spurious complaint. If you spend more than 1 hour (being generous here) in Central London you will see at least one convenience store or newsagent offering the possibility of paying the congestion charge. You can also pay by phone, pay online,  or even at a kiosk in some car parks (new one for me). The penalty for paying the day after use is 2GBP, and thereafter 100GBP, so you have at least 24 hours to pay the charge before the stiff penalties. And someone savvy enough to complain to Chris can type &#8220;congestion charge&#8221; in google.com, at a computer at their hotel or the nearest internet cafe, and find all the details. So in this case I think it is a case of personal irresponsibility.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe F.</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-8364</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/#comment-8364</guid>
		<description>Of course, the congestion charge has done nothing to alleviate congestion - its just another tax.  The problem with do good ideas like this is that they NEVER do anything other than raise the cost of doing business - therefore - they are a tax.  Having just returned from London on business, and taking the Heathrow Express into the City, I&#039;ll tell you, traffic is no better.  However, the City of London collects alot more money.  Thats about it.   

And you can NOT tell me that &#039;its paying for mass transit&#039; since it isn&#039;t -it goes right into the London central account just like every other tax and fee assessed in the city.  You can TELL yourself that, but its not true.  Its like the bazillions of Americans who think there is a social security &#039;account&#039; just waiting for them to draw upon.  People are pretty amazing at how they can justify almost anything to themselves when its presents as &#039;doing some good.&#039;  

The American Ambassador is correct, it is tax.  Diplomats do not pay taxes.  

I&#039;ve got a much much better idea for diplomats.  America will pay these fees, taxes and charges, if you do.  If Britain, Botswana or Bahrain obey American laws, we&#039;ll obey theirs.   The ENTIRE solution to trade policy, trade disputes and tariffs is America adopting the policy of the nation we are trading with.  If China does not respect patent, trademark and copyright, neither do we of their goods.  If France has a 40% tariff on American wine, we have the same tariff on French wine.  If Japan has a 90% tariff on American rice or cars, or requires extra inspections, we do as well.  

If all America does is mirror the rules of the world around us, how can anyone dislike us?  And, we make a point at the same time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, the congestion charge has done nothing to alleviate congestion &#8211; its just another tax.  The problem with do good ideas like this is that they NEVER do anything other than raise the cost of doing business &#8211; therefore &#8211; they are a tax.  Having just returned from London on business, and taking the Heathrow Express into the City, I&#8217;ll tell you, traffic is no better.  However, the City of London collects alot more money.  Thats about it.   </p>
<p>And you can NOT tell me that &#8216;its paying for mass transit&#8217; since it isn&#8217;t -it goes right into the London central account just like every other tax and fee assessed in the city.  You can TELL yourself that, but its not true.  Its like the bazillions of Americans who think there is a social security &#8216;account&#8217; just waiting for them to draw upon.  People are pretty amazing at how they can justify almost anything to themselves when its presents as &#8216;doing some good.&#8217;  </p>
<p>The American Ambassador is correct, it is tax.  Diplomats do not pay taxes.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve got a much much better idea for diplomats.  America will pay these fees, taxes and charges, if you do.  If Britain, Botswana or Bahrain obey American laws, we&#8217;ll obey theirs.   The ENTIRE solution to trade policy, trade disputes and tariffs is America adopting the policy of the nation we are trading with.  If China does not respect patent, trademark and copyright, neither do we of their goods.  If France has a 40% tariff on American wine, we have the same tariff on French wine.  If Japan has a 90% tariff on American rice or cars, or requires extra inspections, we do as well.  </p>
<p>If all America does is mirror the rules of the world around us, how can anyone dislike us?  And, we make a point at the same time.</p>
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		<title>By: Monroe</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-8343</link>
		<dc:creator>Monroe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/#comment-8343</guid>
		<description>Another option if you have to have a car for some of your time in London is to either hire an electric vehicle that pays NO congestion charge, sometimes gets free parking and occasionally even gets free charging. Hey, they&#039;re not gonna go 100mph nor go more then 60 or so miles but how much do you need driving around a city like London? The other choice is to join a car club. No, not where you stand around drinking a beer admiring all the Camaros or what not but where you hire a car by the hour for a reasonable fee, don&#039;t pay for fuel or insurance, congestion fee is taken care of  and when you&#039;re done with the car, you return it to either where you picked it up or another designated parking spot. Pretty reasonable choices there for anybody. Oh, electric motorcycles have the same no pay deal if you want to hire one of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another option if you have to have a car for some of your time in London is to either hire an electric vehicle that pays NO congestion charge, sometimes gets free parking and occasionally even gets free charging. Hey, they&#8217;re not gonna go 100mph nor go more then 60 or so miles but how much do you need driving around a city like London? The other choice is to join a car club. No, not where you stand around drinking a beer admiring all the Camaros or what not but where you hire a car by the hour for a reasonable fee, don&#8217;t pay for fuel or insurance, congestion fee is taken care of  and when you&#8217;re done with the car, you return it to either where you picked it up or another designated parking spot. Pretty reasonable choices there for anybody. Oh, electric motorcycles have the same no pay deal if you want to hire one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Lois</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-8339</link>
		<dc:creator>Lois</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:51:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/#comment-8339</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry that Graham got caught out by the congestion charge but, as you said, there are a number of ways to pay the fee. The congestion charge was imposed for a very good reason - to discourage people from driving into central London during peak time and causing more pollution, but to use the plentiful public transport instead (which the congestion charge rightfully helps pay for).

I agree with JCH about the notion that diplomats from any country should some how feel they are exempt from paying the congestion charge in London.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry that Graham got caught out by the congestion charge but, as you said, there are a number of ways to pay the fee. The congestion charge was imposed for a very good reason &#8211; to discourage people from driving into central London during peak time and causing more pollution, but to use the plentiful public transport instead (which the congestion charge rightfully helps pay for).</p>
<p>I agree with JCH about the notion that diplomats from any country should some how feel they are exempt from paying the congestion charge in London.</p>
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		<title>By: DRS</title>
		<link>http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-8338</link>
		<dc:creator>DRS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elliott.org/blog/help-im-stuck-in-londons-congestion-pricing-trap/#comment-8338</guid>
		<description>I have lived in NJ and NY and can reliably inform JCH that foreign ambassadors, embassy staff, united nations delegates and staff refuse to pay and owe the city of NY literally millions in fees and fines - yet they cite &#039;diplomatic immunity&#039; and double park into the middle of streets, on sidewalks, block fire hydrants, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have lived in NJ and NY and can reliably inform JCH that foreign ambassadors, embassy staff, united nations delegates and staff refuse to pay and owe the city of NY literally millions in fees and fines &#8211; yet they cite &#8216;diplomatic immunity&#8217; and double park into the middle of streets, on sidewalks, block fire hydrants, etc.</p>
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