Comments on: Are external disk drives a threat to flight safety? http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/ Consumer advocate Christopher Elliott's site. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 05:25:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Candyman87 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-19815 Candyman87 Fri, 29 May 2009 16:33:58 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-19815 Hi there, really great article. I recently came from Mexico City to the United States with Mexicana and I couldn't believe it! They took away my EMPTY 0.5 l water bottle that I purchased at the airport (after doing the security check). Than they took away a very expensive cream tube of 200ML (full) - because on a plane nowadays you are only allowed to take a 100ML bottle/tube with you - BUT IT WAS ALMOST EMPTY! The third crazy thing was that they confiscated a small roll of tape (I'm traveling with my "office" in my laptop bag) - because I could toggle/gag somebody with a meter of tape! For the electronic devices I always thought it is a scam (as I believe in the conspiracy theory) - to control people and to cut off communication between the passengers and the rest of the world. As I'm a big traveling-fan I'm very sad to see with how much fanaticism they handle security at airports. So please people... don't believe everything you hear/see... Peace and love PS:Sorry for my double post but I think this page has much more visitors... Hi there, really great article.

I recently came from Mexico City to the United States with Mexicana and I couldn’t believe it!

They took away my EMPTY 0.5 l water bottle that I purchased at the airport (after doing the security check).
Than they took away a very expensive cream tube of 200ML (full) – because on a plane nowadays you are only allowed to take a 100ML bottle/tube with you – BUT IT WAS ALMOST EMPTY!
The third crazy thing was that they confiscated a small roll of tape (I’m traveling with my “office” in my laptop bag) – because I could toggle/gag somebody with a meter of tape!

For the electronic devices I always thought it is a scam (as I believe in the conspiracy theory) – to control people and to cut off communication between the passengers and the rest of the world.

As I’m a big traveling-fan I’m very sad to see with how much fanaticism they handle security at airports.

So please people… don’t believe everything you hear/see…

Peace and love

PS:Sorry for my double post but I think this page has much more visitors…

]]> By: duke http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-6129 duke Fri, 09 Nov 2007 01:58:03 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-6129 On the following: Non-aviation rated GPS receivers are designed to fail to operate in a very obvious way at speeds over those obtainable in an ordinary automobile. (I don’t know the real cut off; it’s probably under 130MPH.) The manufacturer doesn’t want the non-aviation rated gear being used by fliers; it’s not tested in that environment and they’re not being paid (through a higher purchase price) to assume the liability of aviation operation for the device. Pilots use their GPS’s because they’re better shielded and better tested and they’re legally sold as usable for piloting. .......... My Garmin indicated 1100 km/hr eastbound with a decent tail wind one trip. And it gave ground track most of the way to Vienna on a trip there. Metric airliner company, Austrian Airlines. Of course that is translated from the German name. Was a great trip, even had a ride on the Orient Express. On the following:
Non-aviation rated GPS receivers are designed to fail to operate in a very obvious way at speeds over those obtainable in an ordinary automobile. (I don’t know the real cut off; it’s probably under 130MPH.) The manufacturer doesn’t want the non-aviation rated gear being used by fliers; it’s not tested in that environment and they’re not being paid (through a higher purchase price) to assume the liability of aviation operation for the device. Pilots use their GPS’s because they’re better shielded and better tested and they’re legally sold as usable for piloting.

……….

My Garmin indicated 1100 km/hr eastbound with a decent tail wind one trip.
And it gave ground track most of the way to Vienna on a trip there. Metric airliner company, Austrian Airlines. Of course that is translated from the German name.

Was a great trip, even had a ride on the Orient Express.

]]> By: Ken http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-6086 Ken Tue, 06 Nov 2007 23:21:00 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-6086 At radio frequencies, the fuselage of an airplane is, essentially, a reverberation chamber. It is a metal box long enough to have standing waves at communication frequencies. The reason that airlines ask you to turn off electronic devices during take-off and landing is that they don't want to rely on the shielding of the equipment they're using to operate the plane being well designed, completely up to code, and well maintained. If everyone on the plane was allowed to keep all of their electronic gear on, imagine this analogy: There are 500 people in a cathedral, all talking loudly, and someone is trying to have a very important phone conversation in the middle of it. Chances are reasonable that the person can still communicate on the phone, but it's a hell of a lot harder to hear and be heard. When that conversation is between the pilot's controls and the tail wing, I, personally, wouldn't mind being quiet for a few minutes. The sad part is that most people have no idea what radiates RF energy and what doesn't, so if it has a battery, it's a suspect. It's a PITA, and they often sweat the wrong details. However, given recent airplane maintenance track records, having a little safety extra margin during take-off and landing isn't such a terrible idea. They don't have to be rude about it though... At radio frequencies, the fuselage of an airplane is, essentially, a reverberation chamber. It is a metal box long enough to have standing waves at communication frequencies. The reason that airlines ask you to turn off electronic devices during take-off and landing is that they don’t want to rely on the shielding of the equipment they’re using to operate the plane being well designed, completely up to code, and well maintained.

If everyone on the plane was allowed to keep all of their electronic gear on, imagine this analogy: There are 500 people in a cathedral, all talking loudly, and someone is trying to have a very important phone conversation in the middle of it. Chances are reasonable that the person can still communicate on the phone, but it’s a hell of a lot harder to hear and be heard. When that conversation is between the pilot’s controls and the tail wing, I, personally, wouldn’t mind being quiet for a few minutes.

The sad part is that most people have no idea what radiates RF energy and what doesn’t, so if it has a battery, it’s a suspect. It’s a PITA, and they often sweat the wrong details. However, given recent airplane maintenance track records, having a little safety extra margin during take-off and landing isn’t such a terrible idea.

They don’t have to be rude about it though…

]]> By: Stefan http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-6021 Stefan Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:30:11 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-6021 These aren't government run airlines, and this isn't communist eastern europe. It is a capitalists society for the time being, and if these companies decide to make silly rules (which will hurt their business) then that is their prerogative. Fly another airline, or take a train. The only *real* problem here are the periodic tax-payer bailouts of the airlines that crush innovation and stifle competition. That and the governments antiquated air traffic control system that creates a literal bonfire to burn away all potential airline profit with late planes and congestion. These aren’t government run airlines, and this isn’t communist eastern europe. It is a capitalists society for the time being, and if these companies decide to make silly rules (which will hurt their business) then that is their prerogative. Fly another airline, or take a train.

The only *real* problem here are the periodic tax-payer bailouts of the airlines that crush innovation and stifle competition. That and the governments antiquated air traffic control system that creates a literal bonfire to burn away all potential airline profit with late planes and congestion.

]]> By: Lyngengr http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-5333 Lyngengr Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:53:01 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-5333 I can confirm Steve P's comment about normal GPS receivers working on airplanes. I have a Garmin eTrex Vista and it works fine on airplanes, you just have to hold it up to a window. At crusing altitudes, I usually get somewhere around 500-550 mph. Plus, I can figure out where we're at. I'm surprised that a FA let you use it directly, normally I have to sneak mine out. I don't think there is any consistent policy between airlines on these devices. I can confirm Steve P’s comment about normal GPS receivers working on airplanes. I have a Garmin eTrex Vista and it works fine on airplanes, you just have to hold it up to a window. At crusing altitudes, I usually get somewhere around 500-550 mph. Plus, I can figure out where we’re at. I’m surprised that a FA let you use it directly, normally I have to sneak mine out. I don’t think there is any consistent policy between airlines on these devices.

]]> By: Steve P http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-5096 Steve P Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:33:56 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-5096 A poster wrote: "Non-aviation rated GPS receivers are designed to fail to operate in a very obvious way at speeds over those obtainable in an ordinary automobile. (I don’t know the real cut off; it’s probably under 130MPH.) " That is not true. I have a fairly basic hiking GPS which has a mode that displays one's moving speed. On a recent flight where I asked and received permission to turn my GPS on above 10,000 feet, the speed display showed between 500 and 529 MPH. There would be no reason whatsoever to design a GPS to not display fast speeds. A poster wrote:
“Non-aviation rated GPS receivers are designed to fail to operate in a very obvious way at speeds over those obtainable in an ordinary automobile. (I don’t know the real cut off; it’s probably under 130MPH.) ”

That is not true. I have a fairly basic hiking GPS which has a mode that displays one’s moving speed. On a recent flight where I asked and received permission to turn my GPS on above 10,000 feet, the speed display showed between 500 and 529 MPH. There would be no reason whatsoever to design a GPS to not display fast speeds.

]]> By: Jason Zions http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-4825 Jason Zions Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:42:35 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-4825 Delta doesn't ban possession of an external harddrive on their flights. They do ban OPERATION of them, under the " Peripheral devices for computers or games connected by cable" clause someone quoted above. Given the poor quality cables I've seen (operating in the 480MHz and up range for USB 2.0 and Firewire), I'm not sure I'd argue with them. I regularly bring one external drive with me, and sometimes as many as three; never had a problem with cabin crew or TSA. (I've heard from a colleague, though, that the new 750GB and larger hard drives may be susceptible to damage from the X-ray machine if it's turned up to maximum power; consider asking for a hand-check of the drive, and be prepared to hook it up to your laptop and show'em it's real.) Non-aviation rated GPS receivers are designed to fail to operate in a very obvious way at speeds over those obtainable in an ordinary automobile. (I don't know the real cut off; it's probably under 130MPH.) The manufacturer doesn't want the non-aviation rated gear being used by fliers; it's not tested in that environment and they're not being paid (through a higher purchase price) to assume the liability of aviation operation for the device. Pilots use their GPS's because they're better shielded and better tested and they're legally sold as usable for piloting. I've had the argument about active-noise-surpression gear with flight attendants, even pointing out that Bose uses the same electronics in the headset the pilot is using as in the headphones I'm wearing. But I've since seen the difference in build quality between what Bose sells consumers and what they sell to pilots, and I am no longer so sure; I just turn'em off but leave'em on my head. The occasional FA asks me to remove them completely, and I comply there as well; life's too short to spend a day explaining to some TSA suit why I was unnecessarily being a jerk. Delta doesn’t ban possession of an external harddrive on their flights. They do ban OPERATION of them, under the ” Peripheral devices for computers or games connected by cable” clause someone quoted above. Given the poor quality cables I’ve seen (operating in the 480MHz and up range for USB 2.0 and Firewire), I’m not sure I’d argue with them. I regularly bring one external drive with me, and sometimes as many as three; never had a problem with cabin crew or TSA. (I’ve heard from a colleague, though, that the new 750GB and larger hard drives may be susceptible to damage from the X-ray machine if it’s turned up to maximum power; consider asking for a hand-check of the drive, and be prepared to hook it up to your laptop and show’em it’s real.)

Non-aviation rated GPS receivers are designed to fail to operate in a very obvious way at speeds over those obtainable in an ordinary automobile. (I don’t know the real cut off; it’s probably under 130MPH.) The manufacturer doesn’t want the non-aviation rated gear being used by fliers; it’s not tested in that environment and they’re not being paid (through a higher purchase price) to assume the liability of aviation operation for the device. Pilots use their GPS’s because they’re better shielded and better tested and they’re legally sold as usable for piloting.

I’ve had the argument about active-noise-surpression gear with flight attendants, even pointing out that Bose uses the same electronics in the headset the pilot is using as in the headphones I’m wearing. But I’ve since seen the difference in build quality between what Bose sells consumers and what they sell to pilots, and I am no longer so sure; I just turn’em off but leave’em on my head. The occasional FA asks me to remove them completely, and I comply there as well; life’s too short to spend a day explaining to some TSA suit why I was unnecessarily being a jerk.

]]> By: gundlion http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-4787 gundlion Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:53:02 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-4787 Use an external drive that plugs directly into the computer, like a flash drive or micro hard drive. The cable can act as an antenna to increase the range of the interference. Use an external drive that plugs directly into the computer, like a flash drive or micro hard drive. The cable can act as an antenna to increase the range of the interference.

]]> By: Christopher Elliott http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-4761 Christopher Elliott Tue, 16 Oct 2007 20:08:20 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-4761 You know that is really amazing. One minute the peripherals are not allowed, the next they are. Do you think we had something to do with that? Only thing that still puzzles me is why Delta pr won't answer my questions. If I were paranoid, I'd think I'm on some kind of list. ;-) You know that is really amazing. One minute the peripherals are not allowed, the next they are. Do you think we had something to do with that? Only thing that still puzzles me is why Delta pr won’t answer my questions. If I were paranoid, I’d think I’m on some kind of list. ;-)

]]> By: JH http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-4758 JH Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:55:00 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-4758 It seems that Delta no longer considers external hard drives a "threat"... http://www.delta.com/traveling_checkin/inflight_services/connectivity/personal_electronic_devices/index.jsp It seems that Delta no longer considers external hard drives a “threat”…

http://www.delta.com/traveling_checkin/inflight_services/connectivity/personal_electronic_devices/index.jsp

]]> By: Lindsay http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-4755 Lindsay Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:42:13 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-4755 This is insane. I need my drive to do my work, and I need to work on the plane. If my drive can make it through security with no problem, what the hell is Delta's issue? I'm not flying Delta again until this policy goes away. Period. This is insane. I need my drive to do my work, and I need to work on the plane. If my drive can make it through security with no problem, what the hell is Delta’s issue? I’m not flying Delta again until this policy goes away. Period.

]]> By: Mike http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-4730 Mike Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:41:13 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-4730 Noise cancelling headphones a problem? I hear BETTER when I have my headset turned on! Since the CD or DVD player has to be turned off during takeoff and landing, there is no extra sound being pushed to my ears. The noise cancelling headphones do NOT block the human voice - only the constant hum, etc. of engines, etc. Headphones do not emite radio frequencies. I have tested PCs in airplanes, and depending on where you sit, it CAN interfere with navigation equipment. Some of the new PCs have the wireless device turned on and it will also interfere - if you use your PC in flight, make sure you turn off the wireless connection (and bluetooth.) Noise cancelling headphones a problem? I hear BETTER when I have my headset turned on! Since the CD or DVD player has to be turned off during takeoff and landing, there is no extra sound being pushed to my ears. The noise cancelling headphones do NOT block the human voice – only the constant hum, etc. of engines, etc. Headphones do not emite radio frequencies.
I have tested PCs in airplanes, and depending on where you sit, it CAN interfere with navigation equipment. Some of the new PCs have the wireless device turned on and it will also interfere – if you use your PC in flight, make sure you turn off the wireless connection (and bluetooth.)

]]> By: Kairho http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-4721 Kairho Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:18:41 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-4721 Good comments. As to "Hmmmm…. “radiate radio frequency energy”? Does this mean that the new passports being issued by the US that contain RF chips would be prohibited?" No. At least not for that reason! The rule prevent the devices in that list from being _operated_ on board. RFID chips do not continuously radiate. They are only active when a special detection unit (reader) is put into close proximity of the RFID and then it will weakly transmit (using the energy from the reader as there is no battery). So unless Immigration is checking passports on board..... Good comments. As to “Hmmmm…. “radiate radio frequency energy”? Does this mean that the new passports being issued by the US that contain RF chips would be prohibited?”

No. At least not for that reason! The rule prevent the devices in that list from being _operated_ on board. RFID chips do not continuously radiate. They are only active when a special detection unit (reader) is put into close proximity of the RFID and then it will weakly transmit (using the energy from the reader as there is no battery). So unless Immigration is checking passports on board…..

]]> By: Joe F. http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-4718 Joe F. Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:19:39 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-4718 As for the reasons for electronics and headsets - the headset rule is pretty simple. Most aircraft accidents occur on take off and landing and if you are wearing a headset you may not either hear the evacuation command or understand instructions. Thats common sense and I can see the operational safety reasons for doing so. They do not want your attention buried in song or a movie. The electronics issue is thornier. Under 10,000 and in terminal airspace, there is little use of non VOR navigation; most aircraft are on radar vectors - as in "American 167 fly heading 280 intercept the ILS [instrument landing system] for Runway 31" or fly heading XXX cleared for the visual approach. At that point, there is no real need for electronic navigation if the approach is visual. The ILS receivers in the aircraft are pretty safe from stray electromagnetic sources. It is true that some of the screens and other displays have been interfered with by various types of passenger electronics. In my own aircraft, I have seen my own approved aircraft electronic interfere with other approved aircraft electronics - the ILS receiver when tuned to certain frequencies will block the GPS antenna from receiving a signal - so - it does happen. As for the reasons for electronics and headsets – the headset rule is pretty simple. Most aircraft accidents occur on take off and landing and if you are wearing a headset you may not either hear the evacuation command or understand instructions. Thats common sense and I can see the operational safety reasons for doing so. They do not want your attention buried in song or a movie.

The electronics issue is thornier. Under 10,000 and in terminal airspace, there is little use of non VOR navigation; most aircraft are on radar vectors – as in “American 167 fly heading 280 intercept the ILS [instrument landing system] for Runway 31″ or fly heading XXX cleared for the visual approach. At that point, there is no real need for electronic navigation if the approach is visual. The ILS receivers in the aircraft are pretty safe from stray electromagnetic sources.

It is true that some of the screens and other displays have been interfered with by various types of passenger electronics. In my own aircraft, I have seen my own approved aircraft electronic interfere with other approved aircraft electronics – the ILS receiver when tuned to certain frequencies will block the GPS antenna from receiving a signal – so – it does happen.

]]> By: Short hops — October 16, 2007 — Golden ages, sweet spots, and the shortcut to the front of the TSA line » Upgrade: Travel Better http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/comment-page-1/#comment-4709 Short hops — October 16, 2007 — Golden ages, sweet spots, and the shortcut to the front of the TSA line » Upgrade: Travel Better Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:08:46 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/blog/are-external-disk-drives-a-threat-to-flight-safety/#comment-4709 [...] hard drive is a weapon Since when are external hard drives a threat to security? [...] [...] hard drive is a weapon Since when are external hard drives a threat to security? [...]

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