Comments on: “A prime example of bureaucratic nonsense and inefficiency” http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/ Consumer advocate Christopher Elliott's site. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 05:25:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Charles Clarke http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-62559 Charles Clarke Wed, 02 Feb 2011 16:45:14 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-62559 While wanting to preserve the value of the premium cabin makes sense, there are other long term ways to do this like changing the configuration of the cabins to have fewer premium seats and more coach seats. Some airlines have been doing this. For the short term, selling an upgrade to someone for a good price, but below the cost of a full premium fare is a good way to capitalize on the empty seats that the revenue management folks were unable to sell. And not discriminating against their best customers and allowing those with frequent flyer tickets to upgrade, for either money or miles, just like those who paid cash for their seats makes sense. Especially if it makes a coach seat available so they don't have to bump someone. That said, if I was running the airlines, I would set thresholds for the different elite levels where we would NOT upgrade you for free unless it was to our advantage. i.e. You paid points, miles or it freed up a coach seat that we could sell. So, if you were the lowest level, you wouldn't be upgraded for free if you had already been upgraded for free on over 50% of your flights for the year. Next level up, 75%. Top level could have 100%. If you're flying 100,000 miles/year and still willing to take the chance of not being upgraded, fine with us. Those willing to pay for upgrades would be upgraded before you. While wanting to preserve the value of the premium cabin makes sense, there are other long term ways to do this like changing the configuration of the cabins to have fewer premium seats and more coach seats. Some airlines have been doing this.

For the short term, selling an upgrade to someone for a good price, but below the cost of a full premium fare is a good way to capitalize on the empty seats that the revenue management folks were unable to sell.

And not discriminating against their best customers and allowing those with frequent flyer tickets to upgrade, for either money or miles, just like those who paid cash for their seats makes sense. Especially if it makes a coach seat available so they don’t have to bump someone.

That said, if I was running the airlines, I would set thresholds for the different elite levels where we would NOT upgrade you for free unless it was to our advantage. i.e. You paid points, miles or it freed up a coach seat that we could sell. So, if you were the lowest level, you wouldn’t be upgraded for free if you had already been upgraded for free on over 50% of your flights for the year. Next level up, 75%. Top level could have 100%. If you’re flying 100,000 miles/year and still willing to take the chance of not being upgraded, fine with us. Those willing to pay for upgrades would be upgraded before you.

]]> By: TJ http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13705 TJ Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:50:56 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13705 I fly from Seattle to Kauai twice a year. Northwest always makes their empty first-class seats available at the gate for $250. In September I'll fly Alaska for the first time as they now offer a non-stop. If a seat is available, I'll be able to upgrade during on-line check-in for $200. Well worth it now that they're flying so many single-isle planes long distances. These two airlines see the $$ potential in those empty seats up front. I fly from Seattle to Kauai twice a year. Northwest always makes their empty first-class seats available at the gate for $250. In September I’ll fly Alaska for the first time as they now offer a non-stop. If a seat is available, I’ll be able to upgrade during on-line check-in for $200. Well worth it now that they’re flying so many single-isle planes long distances. These two airlines see the $$ potential in those empty seats up front.

]]> By: Jennifer http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13696 Jennifer Tue, 29 Jul 2008 18:53:51 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13696 I, too, do not understand the logic in leaving a cabin empty instead of taking $600 at the gate. Many airlines sell the first class seats before take-off. Other than those already mentioned, US Air does it, too. For first class domestic departures, I've paid (if I remember correctly) $300 to upgrade on a 5 1/2 hour flight. I was given the option at on-line check in 24 hours before take-off. Well worth it. US also allows upgrade from coach to Envoy (business class) at $500 at on-line check in on international flights. It is highly unusual (and IMO just plain stupid) to leave the seat open instead of making pure cash on it. And remember most of those flying up front didn't pay for that seat, they're redeeming miles for it (which obviously they paid for over the course of time). As such, it doesn't wash that the airline needs to keep them open for last minute "purchases." I, too, do not understand the logic in leaving a cabin empty instead of taking $600 at the gate. Many airlines sell the first class seats before take-off. Other than those already mentioned, US Air does it, too. For first class domestic departures, I’ve paid (if I remember correctly) $300 to upgrade on a 5 1/2 hour flight. I was given the option at on-line check in 24 hours before take-off. Well worth it. US also allows upgrade from coach to Envoy (business class) at $500 at on-line check in on international flights.

It is highly unusual (and IMO just plain stupid) to leave the seat open instead of making pure cash on it.

And remember most of those flying up front didn’t pay for that seat, they’re redeeming miles for it (which obviously they paid for over the course of time). As such, it doesn’t wash that the airline needs to keep them open for last minute “purchases.”

]]> By: Michele http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13693 Michele Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:46:33 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13693 I flew Delta a couple of years ago, and just before boarding, they made an announcement that there were first class seats available if any one wanted to cough up just $50. That's right, $50. I remember because it seemed such a deal. So it can be done. I understand about not wanting to encourage last minute cheap ticket buyers (although it might get them more customers at this low point in airlines' existence), but at a certain point those seats are just wasted. I think it should be handled just as Chicky said-You buy your seat and take your chances that a first class one will open up just before boarding. You get a seat either way, and the airlines gets a little extra cash to fill an otherwise wasted seat. Hey, that may even get the guy on standby on the plane too-more revenue! I flew Delta a couple of years ago, and just before boarding, they made an announcement that there were first class seats available if any one wanted to cough up just $50. That’s right, $50. I remember because it seemed such a deal. So it can be done. I understand about not wanting to encourage last minute cheap ticket buyers (although it might get them more customers at this low point in airlines’ existence), but at a certain point those seats are just wasted. I think it should be handled just as Chicky said-You buy your seat and take your chances that a first class one will open up just before boarding. You get a seat either way, and the airlines gets a little extra cash to fill an otherwise wasted seat. Hey, that may even get the guy on standby on the plane too-more revenue!

]]> By: Carver Clark Farrow http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13675 Carver Clark Farrow Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:46:25 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13675 I'm with United on this one. If the airlines were to regularly allow people to purchase upgrades at the last minute, then more people who would normally pay for first/business class international tickets would simply take a chance and try to score the upgrade, which is exactly what happens on domestic flights. Additionally, having empty seats enhances the experience for those folks who are already in the premium cabin. On my lrecent trips to Europe, American flew the business class without anyone in middle seats. Having the seat next to me free made the trip that much more enjoyable. I’m with United on this one. If the airlines were to regularly allow people to purchase upgrades at the last minute, then more people who would normally pay for first/business class international tickets would simply take a chance and try to score the upgrade, which is exactly what happens on domestic flights.

Additionally, having empty seats enhances the experience for those folks who are already in the premium cabin. On my lrecent trips to Europe, American flew the business class without anyone in middle seats. Having the seat next to me free made the trip that much more enjoyable.

]]> By: Lyngengr http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13672 Lyngengr Mon, 28 Jul 2008 23:52:40 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13672 Hawaiian Airlines offers their unsold 1st class seats on a first come, first served basis when you check in for around $250. I few to Maui in June on United and they were selling FC seats for $300 at the gate. So at least 2 airlines do sell their premium seats at the last minute. Hawaiian Airlines offers their unsold 1st class seats on a first come, first served basis when you check in for around $250. I few to Maui in June on United and they were selling FC seats for $300 at the gate. So at least 2 airlines do sell their premium seats at the last minute.

]]> By: Kevin M http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13668 Kevin M Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:47:39 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13668 Another point about the value of seats: When someone pays $8,000 for a first-class seat, he's guaranteed that seat (at least, one hopes so, but with flight cancellations, equipment substitutions, etc. even that's not so certain). When you pay $1,000 for a coach seat with the hope of scoring an upgrade for $600, you're taking a chance that an empty seat will be available, and the first class section might be sold out. It's one thing to say the seats will be filled in order of full-fare passengers, then elites using miles, then paid upgrades from coach. It's another thing entirely to say that you'll simply not allow upgrades, period, even when it would mean additional revenue **with no additional cost** to the airline. And in the case of the oversold plane where people were being bumped from coach class when a mileage ticket holder was willing to pay to upgrade to first class - that's just insanity. Here's a chance to avoid having to pay bumping compensation to a passenger, AND make an extra $200, and make two people happy in the process (probably boosting their loyalty to the airline) and the airline is too stupid to connect the dots. Another point about the value of seats: When someone pays $8,000 for a first-class seat, he’s guaranteed that seat (at least, one hopes so, but with flight cancellations, equipment substitutions, etc. even that’s not so certain). When you pay $1,000 for a coach seat with the hope of scoring an upgrade for $600, you’re taking a chance that an empty seat will be available, and the first class section might be sold out.

It’s one thing to say the seats will be filled in order of full-fare passengers, then elites using miles, then paid upgrades from coach. It’s another thing entirely to say that you’ll simply not allow upgrades, period, even when it would mean additional revenue **with no additional cost** to the airline.

And in the case of the oversold plane where people were being bumped from coach class when a mileage ticket holder was willing to pay to upgrade to first class – that’s just insanity. Here’s a chance to avoid having to pay bumping compensation to a passenger, AND make an extra $200, and make two people happy in the process (probably boosting their loyalty to the airline) and the airline is too stupid to connect the dots.

]]> By: Alex http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13663 Alex Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:03:42 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13663 The sweaters comparison earlier doesn't make any sense and can't be compared to airline revenue. The difference is if you put down that $200 sweater someone else can come along and buy it for $200 but as soon as the airplane pulls out of the gate, that $8,000 income seat suddenly a $0 income seat. Which would the airline rather get -- $600 or $0? I believe that was the point of the post. It's simple business sense. Sorry if the guy next to you paid $8,000 for the same seat, but he's not paying for the privilege to sit next to an empty seat. I get that it costs more to service these seats, but $600 surely is better than $0. The poster's point is well-made and the sweater comment is not. The sweaters comparison earlier doesn’t make any sense and can’t be compared to airline revenue. The difference is if you put down that $200 sweater someone else can come along and buy it for $200 but as soon as the airplane pulls out of the gate, that $8,000 income seat suddenly a $0 income seat. Which would the airline rather get — $600 or $0? I believe that was the point of the post. It’s simple business sense. Sorry if the guy next to you paid $8,000 for the same seat, but he’s not paying for the privilege to sit next to an empty seat.

I get that it costs more to service these seats, but $600 surely is better than $0. The poster’s point is well-made and the sweater comment is not.

]]> By: Chicky http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13652 Chicky Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:42:37 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13652 IMHO, the concept of leaving seats empty and losing money in the long run doesn't wash. What's 100 percent of nothing? A sensible solution would be to offer these seats, say 60 minutes before the flight, to those who were already ticket holders on that flight. This prevents the last-minute manipulations, since the airline is already guaranteed a certain amount of money on the flight because the offer is only good if you already have a ticket. If the airline sells, say four seats in business class at $600 each, they've realized an extra $2,400 on that flight alone. They could continue to charge the walk-up fare up to 90 minutes before departure, but since you're supposed to have checked in and cleared security 60 minutes before departure, it should be a rare occurrence for someone offering to pay full fare for the seat 20 minutes before takeoff. But I'm just an English major. What do I know about business? IMHO, the concept of leaving seats empty and losing money in the long run doesn’t wash. What’s 100 percent of nothing? A sensible solution would be to offer these seats, say 60 minutes before the flight, to those who were already ticket holders on that flight. This prevents the last-minute manipulations, since the airline is already guaranteed a certain amount of money on the flight because the offer is only good if you already have a ticket. If the airline sells, say four seats in business class at $600 each, they’ve realized an extra $2,400 on that flight alone.
They could continue to charge the walk-up fare up to 90 minutes before departure, but since you’re supposed to have checked in and cleared security 60 minutes before departure, it should be a rare occurrence for someone offering to pay full fare for the seat 20 minutes before takeoff.
But I’m just an English major. What do I know about business?

]]> By: Kim http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13649 Kim Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:31:00 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13649 Hi Chris, it makes perfect sense! As Scott also mentioned: if the airlines started giving away empty seats for almost nothing they would make a little more money in the short run (your specific flight) but they would loose a lot of money in the long run! It's the same reason they changed the system from charging less for last-minute flights to charging more for last minute flights... People were not buying plane tickets anymore and waited until the very last second when they felt the airline was desperate to sell the ticket for next to nothing. They changed it. If you buy last second you pay a lot more. They'd rather have some empty seats than people manipulating them. Kim Hi Chris,

it makes perfect sense! As Scott also mentioned: if the airlines started giving away empty seats for almost nothing they would make a little more money in the short run (your specific flight) but they would loose a lot of money in the long run!

It’s the same reason they changed the system from charging less for last-minute flights to charging more for last minute flights… People were not buying plane tickets anymore and waited until the very last second when they felt the airline was desperate to sell the ticket for next to nothing. They changed it. If you buy last second you pay a lot more. They’d rather have some empty seats than people manipulating them.

Kim

]]> By: Chris Sloan http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13634 Chris Sloan Sat, 26 Jul 2008 18:43:12 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13634 To be clear, I'm not fuming so much as I am dumbfounded. My point was this: they had lots of unsold seats in business class and they clearly weren't going to fill them (and they didn't get anywhere close) by the time the flight took off. So, why wouldn't they take my $600, when that was pure profit to them? Yes, I was aggravated at the time, but now I just marvel at the stupidity of it. To use the sweater analogy, it would be as if you had lots of sweaters in inventory, but your inventory had to be destroyed at the end of the day, and you still refused to sell one for less than full price. That money was just lost. And to clarify one other thing: I never berated anyone. I was baffled by the answers I got, but I was never anything other than polite and respectful to the people I was dealing with, since it wasn't their fault. To be clear, I’m not fuming so much as I am dumbfounded. My point was this: they had lots of unsold seats in business class and they clearly weren’t going to fill them (and they didn’t get anywhere close) by the time the flight took off. So, why wouldn’t they take my $600, when that was pure profit to them? Yes, I was aggravated at the time, but now I just marvel at the stupidity of it. To use the sweater analogy, it would be as if you had lots of sweaters in inventory, but your inventory had to be destroyed at the end of the day, and you still refused to sell one for less than full price. That money was just lost.

And to clarify one other thing: I never berated anyone. I was baffled by the answers I got, but I was never anything other than polite and respectful to the people I was dealing with, since it wasn’t their fault.

]]> By: Shri http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13632 Shri Sat, 26 Jul 2008 17:04:26 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13632 Good point Scott. It was a "promotional" fare when he flew to Beijing and it ended by the time he flew back. There is nothing much of story in it. Is Mr. Sloan fuming because he could not get a seat that costs $6K for $600? And Chris, what do you mean by "he ENDED up spending 13 hrs in economy class"? Good point Scott. It was a “promotional” fare when he flew to Beijing and it ended by the time he flew back. There is nothing much of story in it. Is Mr. Sloan fuming because he could not get a seat that costs $6K for $600?

And Chris, what do you mean by “he ENDED up spending 13 hrs in economy class”?

]]> By: Joe Farrell http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13631 Joe Farrell Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:27:26 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13631 Guys, American hands out Bose Quiet Comfort III headsets to its F & C class pax on international flights - its about the only really nice perk that AA has that others do not have. I did not need a battery, I needed a new airline provided headset . . . guess I needed to make that clearer. And that trip on the JAL 767 was in coach, not in business - to be clear. Yes, other than the size of the seat, the service and food was better - but then I guess ordering the Japanese meal on a flight to or from Japan on a Japanese airlines probably guarantees a decent meal. Guys, American hands out Bose Quiet Comfort III headsets to its F & C class pax on international flights – its about the only really nice perk that AA has that others do not have. I did not need a battery, I needed a new airline provided headset . . . guess I needed to make that clearer.

And that trip on the JAL 767 was in coach, not in business – to be clear. Yes, other than the size of the seat, the service and food was better – but then I guess ordering the Japanese meal on a flight to or from Japan on a Japanese airlines probably guarantees a decent meal.

]]> By: Scott http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13627 Scott Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:40:37 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13627 The comments have gotten off target. As far as the upgrade promotion, every is so quick to badmouth the airlines, but I agree with this promotional opportunity. If you could upgrade on an international flight for $600 every time you wanted, then NO ONE WOULD EVER BUY A FULL FARE TICKET. People, this is a PROMOTION. You can get things on sale all the time. Just because you get it once, doesn't mean you get it whenever you want. Whenever people complain about things like this, just compare it to sweaters at a clothing store and see if your comparison holds. Airline passengers feel that they should get something for nothing (or little) just because they are asking. Why not give it to me when it is right there? This is like going to a store, buying a sweater for $50, then coming to the counter and asking to exchange that sweater for the $200 sweater. "Well, they are both sweaters and you have one sitting right there. What's the difference? Give it to me!" Things are different prices for a reason. There is a value on the product. Sometimes the product needs to stay unsold to hold its value. Would the guy who paid $8000 for his business class seat be happy that the guy next to him paid $600 to upgrade off a $1000 ticket? If you are not willing to pay the price, STOP COMPLAINING. If you get lucky enough to take advantage of a special offer, stop berating people that you can't have it whenever you want. Do you go to the clothing store and whine, cry and yell that you want the sale price when the sale is over? Grow up people. The comments have gotten off target. As far as the upgrade promotion, every is so quick to badmouth the airlines, but I agree with this promotional opportunity. If you could upgrade on an international flight for $600 every time you wanted, then NO ONE WOULD EVER BUY A FULL FARE TICKET.

People, this is a PROMOTION. You can get things on sale all the time. Just because you get it once, doesn’t mean you get it whenever you want. Whenever people complain about things like this, just compare it to sweaters at a clothing store and see if your comparison holds. Airline passengers feel that they should get something for nothing (or little) just because they are asking. Why not give it to me when it is right there? This is like going to a store, buying a sweater for $50, then coming to the counter and asking to exchange that sweater for the $200 sweater. “Well, they are both sweaters and you have one sitting right there. What’s the difference? Give it to me!” Things are different prices for a reason.

There is a value on the product. Sometimes the product needs to stay unsold to hold its value. Would the guy who paid $8000 for his business class seat be happy that the guy next to him paid $600 to upgrade off a $1000 ticket? If you are not willing to pay the price, STOP COMPLAINING. If you get lucky enough to take advantage of a special offer, stop berating people that you can’t have it whenever you want. Do you go to the clothing store and whine, cry and yell that you want the sale price when the sale is over? Grow up people.

]]> By: Jasper http://www.elliott.org/blog/a-prime-example-of-the-level-of-bureaucratic-nonsense-and-inefficiency/comment-page-1/#comment-13624 Jasper Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:09:49 +0000 http://www.elliott.org/?p=5124#comment-13624 Sorry Joe. Carrying random battaries around would cost extra weight. Can't have that. Fuel prices you know. Sorry Joe. Carrying random battaries around would cost extra weight. Can’t have that. Fuel prices you know.

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